Starting order

Thanks John.

I don't understand the extreme passion that seems to come up on this subject, someone care to explain? I will say the"everyone else does it" argument doesn't work as we have shown examples of. I really don't car what system is used, again I would prefer more events!

Randy your voice is always welcome and appreciated XOXO ...

It's a simple sport, get from here to there, beat the shite out of your car doing it, then all sit around laughing and drinking about the adventures we shared -- apart ...

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As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/27/2009 08:00PM by SEANT.

But John, you've always told us the worst Finn can beat our best US driver.
And that the back of our grids are boring and slow.
So saying US guys are equal to the Euros this time is inconsistent at best.

Taking 10 guys who've never raced and just out of a novice briefing and the out on a stage first on the road sounds pretty dumb.
Half will screw up the transit and never make the start, the other half will check in 5 min. early.
The third half will crash and the 4th half will be fine.

One of the tests I was on was on Pavement, so how hard could that be?
The 3rd car out got big mist and knocked down the power pole that fed the whole town.
Would he have done it in proper order? Maybe, but without the whole town there and the thrill of being the first big hero, maybe not.

The other was Anders' and a slippery corner that was known to all who did the pre event practice caught out one after another car and they were all mixed up, some crews got out of the cars and were pushing each other but with more arriving, got more and more tangled. Funny how even at its worst, the experienced teams made it past.

Dave, ask Pat how thrilled he was to have to pass all those guys.
It may be a good memory after all these years but when it was happening...

The best way to get to the front is to do well, finish and get experience.
That way you get seeded toward the front.

SEANT Wrote:

>
> It's a simple sport, get from here to there and
> beat the shite of your car while doing it, then we
> can all sit around and laugh and drink about the
> adventure we shared apart ...
>

I thought the idea was to be fastest from here to there and DRIVE the shit out of the car. Not beat the shit out of it. This isnt a demolition derby.... THEN laugh and drink about it.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

When you drive the shit out of your car you also beat the shit out of it.

My first rally I started dead last on the road, passed the guy in front of me on the first stage and I've been convinced I'm gonna be the next wrc superstar ever since. Running reverse order would have prevented that. :p

I think the road condition argument that you started with doesn't really hold that well.
- in my experience, there were very rare times when the performance of the car was held up by large ruts, or rocks pulled on the road.
- most stages are run twice, so if the road starts to get bad, it gets bad for everyone.
- driving on crappy rally tires with crappy suspension is something you shouldn't do to begin with.
- catching people sucks, especially when your having fun. Lou and Randy, Don and Tom, us. fast 2wd cars catch awd cars. running lots of events builds your 'cred, and should be rewarded by being seeded well.
- the slowest cars are the ones most likely to loose reverse, drop oil, or bend an axle, get a flat. don't punish later teams.
- sometimes road conditions improve further down the order. WRC guys fight NOT to be the first.
- waiting for sweep sucks. I've had at least 2 events where sweep pulled me more than once. (rearward brake bias at OT 07) if more competitors were willing to slow down for a hot second and yank their friends back onto the road . . .
it seems like a shitty way to penalize slow guys, then you throw them into the mix with or after Pat R?

my question -
would you rather be the HUNTER (me chasing tom's rabbit?)
or the HUNTED (checking my mirrors for some fire breathing monster?)

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"I put the hurt on dirt" - adam crane
http://CraneRallyCrew.com
corolla gt-s "Patches"
Op: S.S.

Wow, lots of discussion for a holiday weekend.

John Lane...yes a fast car will put 2 minutes on the slow car on an 8 mile stage, but he is starting 20 to 40 minutes behind the slow car. So not the issue it seems.

We are about the only motorsport that gives away the big show first. Most other forms of motorsport runs the novice classes, slower classes, support classes first and the fast guys last on the weekend. Hard to do for us because we only have one
group. Now, especially on a RA national, the first 5 cars are the ones everyone watches. After that lots of people leave because the cars get slower quickly. This causes many deserving competitors to never get noticed or even photographed. People ar always asking if someone got a photo of their car. Many lesser teams are sponsored to some degree and that is important to everyone involved. Another minor issue is that after the fast cars come thru spectators tend to get restless and move about. Not always contollable. Might not happen if the cars got progressively faster. I don't know.

Another variation would be to split the field into two groups around the middle or where ever there was a noticable split in speeds. Invert the fast group and let them still go first. Do the same with the slower cars.

Running slower cars first would give the workers a chance to adjust and get into a groove. Many of our workers are novices also. It might also show up flaws in the stage, route book or other areas before the really fast cars find them. Or not.

We're not planning any surprises for anyone, this is juts a BS session because I couldn't make it to the tavern with the group the other night.

I don't care where I start as long as I don't catch the car in front of me... golly that's bad right there.

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Jay Woodward
Snohomish, WA
'90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
Chronologically, 46...

Think of the safety of the Monster video crew too. I mean they pay Rally America to get onto stage and film. The film Travis, Ken, and Mirra then get out of the stage to get to the next location. Wouldn't want them having to both in and out of a live stage instead of just having to get out.

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Grant Hughes

Jay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't care where I start as long as I don't
> catch the car in front of me... golly that's bad
> right there.


Yep having been seeded way down consistantly it shore hain't fun catching peeps but regardless of who's in front of you, it happens occaisonally any time there's human beans involved. Fast guys stuff, too and have cars fall off jack and cost time.

That;s what RE-seeds are for, scheduled or "Sperm of the moment" by Stewards.

I think the road position thing is wrongly associated with "placing" and for shore wrapped up with thoughts of "Status".
>
> Jay Woodward
> Snohomish, WA
> '90 Mazdog Frankenprotege
> Chronologically, 40...

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The other forms of racing in the US that invert the start order is usually done to encourage passing, making it more exciting for the spectators to see people overtaking each other. These forms or racing usually are racing on roads or courses where overtaking is expected and there is room for it. This is not always the case with rally.

I could see dividing the field by drive wheels but only if you ran a combo car similar to what is done between the motorcycles and cars at NASA events now. But this does nothing to help condense the rally.

Like Randy says, reverse order has been used here and there and usually hasn't been horribly successful.

In 2003 when I traveled to a handful of WRC events, the top 10 (or could have been 15) cars were started in reverse order from the first day's standings. The first day was run in correct order from current world standings. What they didn't do was include PWRC or JWRC cars in the inverted field. By looking at pace gaps you can see that only in really long stages does it become a factor but the real impact is when you have crews who are similar enough in pace that they can start strategically slowing down to 'improve' their road position. (not that it doesn't happen now occasionally)

The biggest problem of an inverted field is the increased chance of one inexperienced person's stupidity or bad luck deciding the overall results and the overall championship standings.



- reverse order in WRC.

'National' events have a selection of entrants that range from those that scrape together just enough to go out and have some fun at their local events and those that are spending many tens of thousands a year (or more) to campaign a full national championship. I'm not suggesting in any way that one competitor is more valuable than another but there is a reality that some teams are there for shits and giggles while others are there for a real competition.

Back when we used to trade seconds (sometimes many sometimes few) with Matt Johnson, Tanner Foust and Eric Langbein in PGT the fun would have gone away if a bunch of the stages would have had 'assigned' times because of a stoppage.

If we look at the 'basic' principle of best practices, reverse order is counter intuitive.
One of the highest risk times for a team is when they are stopped on the stage without a triangle displayed. This happens twice, once when the triangle is put out and once when it is recovered ... the difference is that you don't always have control of when you have to put it out and where you stop the car.
If a car has a problem, which is more likely the longer the stage is, Reverse order, when all is going well, only reduces the amount of time to get the triangle out and on very long stages the time could be reduced to almost zero, particularly if the car with the problems was 'limping' for any length of time.

As John says, pulling over and letting a car by when caught should be reflex. On many many stages, 'getting over' isn't immediately possible because of the nature of the road and in dusty conditions there is the combined problem of not seeing the car coming from behind and/or not being able to see well enough to get close enough to get by when the door is opened. (same in some snow conditions and throw in the risk of getting sucked in by over-plow when trying to pass.)

For the most part starting orders don't mean a lot. There are a ton of people that get really worked up about it, but most events are set-up so that a re-seed happens before the really long stages. As a co-driver I will look at the stage order and lengths and do a bit of comparison before an event. If I think we will get within 20 seconds of the car ahead of us I will quietly present that information to the organizers and stewards and see if we can get the start order juggled. More than once I have had to reassure the driver that the start position didn't matter. (I've also argued to be moved back in the order)

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First Rally: 2001
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

NoCoast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Think of the safety of the Monster video crew too.
> I mean they pay Rally America to get onto stage
> and film. The film Travis, Ken, and Mirra then
> get out of the stage to get to the next location.
> Wouldn't want them having to both in and out of a
> live stage instead of just having to get out.
>
> Grant Hughes
> www.nocoastmotorsports.net
> Denver, CO


Yeah, but their job is getting video of Travis, Ken and Dave. Not everyone else. So whether they get in and out or just out of a live stage really wouldnt matter to what they would film, or what would end up being used, at least.

And safety wise, it's probably about the same, as the fast cars would be last, so they would essentially be hiking into a live stage, and then out of a more or less dead (besides sweep) stage.


I shoot for RalliTEK now, when I can, and all I can say is as long as I know when Mark is supposed to be by, If I get a media pass again, I'll hike in live and out cold, or in cold and out live to get his car. That's my priority. If I can get everyone, great! If not, well, sorry.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.