heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure I view the faster is better when they
> crash scenario. I've seen plenty of fast cars
> wreck and block the road or worse... require
> medical assistance.
>
> If we can teach chimps to go into space we can
> teach beginners to put out triangles,, well in
> theory.

I've always felt the whole triangle thing needs to be stressed a awful lot more at Nervous Novice classes and refresher reminders at driver's meeting with clear words sumpin like "EVERYBODY SHALL put out the triangles as son as you stuff----the rules state ......., not "you must , unless you're fighting for a class win or unless you thought you wouldn'r be there that long etc" "You went off there, then that means there's some chance that somebody else my make a similar goof and stuff it right there, too---in fact they may just fawk up cause they come upon you and they break their concentration---and then go off"
"If we get reports of cars off with no triangles---and OK signs, you will get your pee-pee whacked right on the end where it hurts more at the awards right in front of everybody" (blush)
>
> If we reversed the field properly the speed
> differential woouldn't be that great. It would
> increase gradually. If it looked to be a problem
> initially a window could be put in.
>
> An added minor benefit JVL pointed out is the
> learning benefit from getting passed by a faster
> competitor. One big drawback to rally is the
> isolated crews. On a road course or cricle track
> you can watch and learn from the cars in front of
> you. Rally typically lacks that. People can go for
> years and not learn correct braking points or when
> to toss a car. It isn't intuitive for lots of
> people.

Yep this is predicated on the idea we can convince folks that it's OK if there are people in the world who are faster than US, and so to stress "If you get caught, Pull OVER. Our road permissions and insurance are predicated on the idea that we're not head-to-head racing so if the guy behind has reeled you in by a full MINUTE, then he's faster, no big deal, just pull over----and then just on his tail and try and hang with him to watch how deep he goes, how soon he's on the gas etc.
Turn getting caught into an OPPORTUNITY you don't ordinarily have to study your competitor and how they drive."


None of what we do is intuitive except crying and suckling!

What we are trying to do is get our driving so that it becomes the next best to intuiti

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Gene where you have two minutes between the fastest and slowest cars on a six to eight mile stage.....

Cars will get caught on stage.

Having caught a certain individual two miles into a stage and gotten to eat her dust for several miles cuz she would not allow a safe pass.....

Why are we putting lots of effort into catering to spectators in the woods?

How many of us really and truly get a paycheck from a sponsor to go and beat on the car in the woods?

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

Hey JVL.....

I have a brake caliper for you....

Brand new in the box; presented to me by a certain fellow in Canada to send to you.

What is your address so that I can get it to you?

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey JVL.....
>
> I have a brake caliper for you....
>
> Brand new in the box; presented to me by a certain
> fellow in Canada to send to you.
>
> What is your address so that I can get it to you?

2007 S 126th Street
Seattle WA 98168

too bad that guy can't follow a single instruction.........

How much you get for the knuckles/hubs stuff?
>
> JohnLane
>
> Overkill is consistently more fun

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:

> too bad that guy can't follow a single
> instruction.........

Am I in the middle of a pissing match?

>
> How much you get for the knuckles/hubs stuff?

$2500 including a 4X4 oil pan.

He owes $2400 and does not get the goods until he is paid up.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

In Sweden I know the extreme novice, too young to drive guys, are first on the road, at least at the events I've been to over there.

JVL may have more information on this. It's the way the classes are set up and run, obviously it works decent even when they keep the participant level number down low to 180 competitors per event ...

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

Shoot........

Just 180 per event.


SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Sweden I know the extreme novice, too young to
> drive guys, are first on the road, at least at the
> events I've been to over there.
>
> JVL may have more information on this. It's the
> way the classes are set up and run, obviously it
> works decent even when they keep the participant
> level number down low to 180 competitors per event
> ...
>
> As always IMHO
>
> SEAN TENNIS
> SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
> SAAB 99, SAAB 850

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

>>Am I in the middle of a pissing match?

No he's just the customer-from-hell who changes mind, decides he doesn't want what he yapped about "needing' for a couple of hours, forgets everything, and won't follow thru on what he was instructed to do.

Nothing unusual.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shoot........
>
> Just 180 per event.
>
>
> SEANT Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In Sweden I know the extreme novice, too
> young to
> > drive guys, are first on the road, at least
> at the
> > events I've been to over there.
> >
> > JVL may have more information on this. It's
> the
> > way the classes are set up and run, obviously
> it
> > works decent even when they keep the
> participant
> > level number down low to 180 competitors per
> event
> > ...
> >
> > As always IMHO
> >
> > SEAN TENNIS
> > SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
> > SAAB 99, SAAB 850
>
>
>
>
> JohnLane
>
> Overkill is consistently more fun

Yep with 20 - 30 teams in reserve, most of which get to run the second day ..

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

SEANT Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> obviously it works decent

Knowing that they do it doesn't necessarily tell us how well it works. I would guess there's a discussion board over there complaining about these things and saying "they do Z in the US". It's just as easy to say "they get 180 competitors doing it" as it is to say "they're down 30% doing it".

Correlation / causation, people.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

heymagic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Carl S Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > But what do you do with a car thats has
> running
> > issues and is really slow and checks in 15
> minutes
> > late to the next stage and is now in the
> middle of
> > a bunch of fast guys?
>
> Good point. There is no guarantee right now that
> one of the fast guys won't have issues and be a
> hazard to navigation for the other fast guys. No
> real difference is there? The road is never truely
> closed. Starting fast cars first is more of a
> reward system than safety system. Besides the
> running order can always be modified to deal with
> issues like that.
>
> In pretty much all motorsports fast cars have to
> regularly deal with slower cars. Lapped cars, pit
> stops, equipment issues and so on. Many circle
> track events invert the field from time to time
> anyway. I caught and passed 6 cars one event in
> Canada, on stage in the dark. I caught Goochs
> rally truck 5 miles in on a 12 mile stage and they
> weren't having problems. Happens still.

Ha, this reminds me of Maine Forest rally in 2000. Pat Richard was running the 2.5RS in PGT and broke the tranny on the press stage. We didn't have a spare but Lance Smith had one of his guys bring one up from Vermont but it wasn't going to get there in time so we pulled the tranny out in parc expose and had our main class competition, Lauchlin O'Sullivan hook a tow rope to the Subaru and tow it over the start line with no tranny in it so we could get the start points! When the tranny came later that day we put it in and just ran the club event the second day.
Back then they still started the ClubRally cars behind the ProRally cars. Pat was the first ClubRally car on the road but even with a five minute window he was catching sometimes multiple cars per stage in his 165hp PGT car. Codriver Ben Bradley was able to get them moved up at the reseed but they were still like 22nd on the road because it was based on their times having been slowed down by catching so many cars. So they were still catching cars, just not as many.

Anders Green Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEANT Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > obviously it works decent
>
> Knowing that they do it doesn't necessarily tell
> us how well it works. I would guess there's a
> discussion board over there complaining about
> these things and saying "they do Z in the US".
> It's just as easy to say "they get 180 competitors
> doing it" as it is to say "they're down 30% doing
> it".
>
> Correlation / causation, people.
>
> Anders
>
> Raleigh, NC
> Impreza H6 3.0

I think the point is there is more then oneway to do things. It must work to a point or else they wouldn't do it, and don't kid yourself they have some very quick drivers.

I would guess the reason for this starting order is to give the complete novices a decent road surface to learn on. The roads tend to deteriorate, especially the second running, by then the surface can be like bowling lane gutters.

It would be interesting to see the out come of an event running in very dusty situation with reverse start order. Might be a better way to level the playing field for the top drivers ...

---

As always IMHO

SEAN TENNIS KF7JJR
SEATTLE, WASHINGTON
SAAB 99, SAAB 850
SAAB V4, SAAB 99T

This video seems fitting for this thread.
http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/7979/rally-madness-watch-thislol

---

Grant Hughes

SEANT Wrote:
It would be interesting to see the out come of an
> event running in very dusty situation with reverse
> start order. Might be a better way to level the
> playing field for the top drivers ...

OK, you've all read what people who HAVE been involved had to say,
but still discount our warnings.
I could go into more detail but I don't type that well,
have better things to do and you won't listen anyway.
Good Luck!

randyzimmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEANT Wrote:
> It would be interesting to see the out come of an
> > event running in very dusty situation with
> reverse
> > start order. Might be a better way to level
> the
> > playing field for the top drivers ...
>
> OK, you've all read what people who HAVE been
> involved had to say,
> but still discount our warnings.

He's not discounting your warnings, Randy, he's saying based on his experience and the knowledge reverse seeding was done elsewhere including local Swedish events and even BTRDA Gold Star Series in the UK, that there's more than one way to do the start order than the ways it's always and invariably done here, and some how people aren't all dying.



> I could go into more detail but I don't type that
> well,
> have better things to do and you won't listen
> anyway.
> Good Luck!

He listens just fine, he's just saying there's room for discussion.
>
>
>
>

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.