BillyElliot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Snippolla...

> when the CR-X, Civic and Metro
> of the days were pulling off 60mpg with cars that
> weighed less than 2000lbs.
>
> It's all this safety crap that's killing the
> automotive industry. That and people who love
> driving 10,000lb SUVs with chrome on EVERYTHING.
>
> /endrant

Ghod forbid that the driver be responsible for their own safety, and the safety
of the other people in the car as well. The government has taken away that privilege
and legislated safety. Instead of improving the drivers abilities in emergency
situations, the criminals in DC force the auto manufacturers to bloat the vehicle
to a point where fuel economy is somewhat lackluster, as is the performance.

---

SteveL
This is the point in the killing spree when you really should turn the gun on yourself

> Now they are whining that any airbag "deployment"
> basically totals the car because of the cost of
> replacement and the collateral damage. What is
> sown will be reaped...


*****I know this first hand. Last summer I was sitting at a stop light and got rear ended by a Range Rover HSE. I never saw him coming, but he was apparently doing about 50 mph and never touched his brakes. He punted me over 200 feet away from the impact point, and shortened my car by about 3 feet.

Totaled my '91 Sentra of course, but the real surprise was that his 5472 lb/ $74,000 SUV was totaled as well. Apparently something about the 13 airbags being deployed would have cost $20k to replace alone....

---

Opel is a 4-letter word...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10498579@N07/sets/

To show how the media screws with the Toyota deal to make it look worse than it is...

http://gawker.com/5486666/how-abc-news-brian-ross-staged-his-toyota-death-ride

If cars accelerate this fast, I want it to be in my race car!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2010 10:14PM by BillyElliot.

BillyElliot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BJosephD Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > heres an idea, lets attached the brakes to
> the
> > friggin pedal you depress... attach a cable
> to the
> > transmission (from the gear shift), and a
> simple
> > OFF button when all else fails.
>
>
> But then they can't get that extra 1% of a MPG
> they need to make the new CAFE standards. In
> which they could just make MORE EFFICIENT ENGINES
> AND LIGHTER CARS.
>
> Some times I just hate auto manufacturers. Today
> we need a $25,000 car with all this hybrid bull
> and fancy computers when the CR-X, Civic and Metro
> of the days were pulling off 60mpg with cars that
> weighed less than 2000lbs.

Huge exaggerations ruin arguments.
None of those were doing 60 mpg.
Probably mid 40s steady cruise.
50% inflation over the year though is about right judging how ALL the GpB cars are now all said NOW to have been "over 550 bhp", when at the time they were reported to be in the mid-to high 300s.

The late 70s cars were lighter but many had icky engines.
Obviously a light car with a modern 4 valve head
>
> It's all this safety crap that's killing the
> automotive industry. That and people who love
> driving 10,000lb SUVs with chrome on EVERYTHING.

No, I have it on good authority that what's ruining the automotive industry is the evil Socialistic Unions. the same ones that elected the Communist Hussein Obama who is now ruining the whole country with his Nazi health care plan. Why members who are on this board have explained how they all make $75 or more an hour!!!!
See the Unions force the benevolent owners to design really hideous ugly junk and they force the manufacturers to invent advertising campaigns touting giant pig-mobiles gas guzzlers. Yep the run the car industries just as they want cause then when the manufacturers are forced to make shit junk that sucks they can get some time off if the plan it right just about at dear season....

It's a titanic struggle between the evil Unions and the benevolent, charitable Owners, something that would have never happened if we'd elected the Mavawick Team of McCain and that other mavawick from Visalia
>
> /endrant

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

> It's a titanic struggle between the evil Unions
> and the benevolent, charitable Owners, something
> that would have never happened if we'd elected the
> Mavawick Team of McCain and that other mavawick
> from Visalia
> >
> > /endrant

I have heard that Toyota refused the Union at the Lummi(?) plant.

'Unintended Acceleration' BS shows up very shortly therafter.

Hmmmmm......

Rofl!!

John have you Unionized your shop yet? You could STRIKE AGAINST YOURSELF!!

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > It's a titanic struggle between the evil
> Unions
> > and the benevolent, charitable Owners,
> something
> > that would have never happened if we'd
> elected the
> > Mavawick Team of McCain and that other
> mavawick
> > from Visalia
> > >
> > > /endrant
>
> I have heard that Toyota refused the Union at the
> Lummi(?) plant.
>
> 'Unintended Acceleration' BS shows up very
> shortly therafter.
>
> Hmmmmm......
>
> Rofl!!
>
> John have you Unionized your shop yet? You could
> STRIKE AGAINST YOURSELF!!

I have many times.
Loooks stupid to grab you own collar and say to yourself "You fucking bloodsucking bastid! You ain't getting no more concession from me ya fawkin slave driver, so fuck off!"

See the owner part, being superior, forced the worker part to work so gawddamn hard that in just a short 2 and a half decades of pushing hard work work and then second work on top of it and then weekend work, that I had effectively damaged and or flat worn out critcal parts of the body, and eventually the malfunctioning of those parts that DO THE WORK, impinged on the part that plans and directs the works which lead to more failure in the doing the work...

Now had the owner part respected the worker part of me and not driven it so hard, it would have worked steadier for more years and i would not be going into hospital at 0'dark thirty tomorrow to have my knee cut out and thrown away and a replacement one inserted.
>
> JohnLane
>
> Overkill is consistently more fun

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Oh snap. Unintended Acceleration has segued into organized labor?

I know I'm gonna sound bourgeoisie, or "bougie" here, but...
1. If you think the company you work for is unfair and doesn't pay enough - quit.
2. If you think the industry you work in is unfair and doesn't pay enough - educate yourself and find another industry.
3. If the employees view their needs as more important than those of the company, they will fail - every time.

GM is unionized. GM is bloated, inept, and the largest welfare case in American history. They are the "Octo-mom" of the manufacturing sector.

Chrysler is unionized. They're like a special needs kind of manufacturer. Now the Italians are holding their hand and it won't be long until they're completely irrelevant. Fiat is to Chrysler what Chrysler was to Plymouth. How fucked up do you need to be in order to provide the underpinnings for the new LANCIAS?

Ford is unionized and even though they've done well through the Detroit assplosion in recent years, their employees feel they need a bigger slice of the pie and are willing to throw the whole company right into the shitter for more money, benefits, greed, and sloth. Hey! We're doing alright! We're gaining market share! We're building cars people might actually buy! Let's all pull together to truly go above and beyond our customers' expectations! Let's give BMW a run for their money! Wait. Fuck that. I want a raise and I'll walk right out if I don't get one.

That's fucking retarded!

Meanwhile, the non-union Nissan, Toyota, and BMW plants in the south seem to be moving right along. Everyone has their jobs, the local economies are doing better than most. Funny, that.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of the working man. The suits, with their fortress economy mindsets, private jets, and golden parachutes should be burned at the stake. I just don't see organizing in order to perpetuate a constant struggle against an industry which you feel is unjust. Why strike? Don't work there in the first place!

Wal-mart needs a union. The auto industry doesn't. It's greed, pure and simple. If you make more money than average, have "Cadillac" health insurance, and your 35 year old grand children are going to college for free as one of YOUR employment benefits, you're abusing the system.

I would love Toyota to come right out and tell the American media: We are have indulged your sensationalist bullshit long enough. The issue is not with our cars, but with lazy, irresponsible operators who should not be licensed to drive in the first place. Waste all the time you want investigating this or accusing that. If you do not grow the fuck up, we'll just close our American operations and redouble our efforts everywhere else in the world.

/rant

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

> > STRIKE AGAINST YOURSELF!!
>
> I have many times.
> Loooks stupid to grab you own collar and say to
> yourself "You fucking bloodsucking bastid! You
> ain't getting no more concession from me ya fawkin
> slave driver, so fuck off!"
>
> See the owner part, being superior, forced the
> worker part to work so gawddamn hard that in just
> a short 2 and a half decades of pushing hard work
> work and then second work on top of it and then
> weekend work, that I had effectively damaged and
> or flat worn out critcal parts of the body, and
> eventually the malfunctioning of those parts that
> DO THE WORK, impinged on the part that plans and
> directs the works which lead to more failure in
> the doing the work...
>
> Now had the owner part respected the worker part
> of me and not driven it so hard, it would have
> worked steadier for more years and i would not be
> going into hospital at 0'dark thirty tomorrow to
> have my knee cut out and thrown away and a
> replacement one inserted.

I've spoke with many with 'fake' joints.

The docs are very good at it today.

You will wonder for years why you waited so long. Should have robbed a bank sooner to pay for it.

Just one knee? While riding Motorcycles in the 70s(?) you beat the hell out of more then shoulders and knees.

---

JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

With all due respect, re-read my analysis.
The major competitiors overseas have all been unionized forever, they pay their workers what amounts to and becomes the target wage, their Total Wage Costs in most places including JAPAN exceeded Total Wage Costs for USa autofactories already in fawking 1972....you remember 1972 Brian? I do, I was a metal workers Union member.


The workers can only make what the management tells the designers to design.

Speaking platitudes about "if you don't like it....' ignores the realities about local geo-economics: sometimes whole swaths of countries are essentially oligopolies all interrelated so often not much choice...

Come on, the averaghe union wage today in the UAW is in the high teens to low 20s and within a few % of the Wage Cost of the Southern factories...

The real welfare is the CORPORATE WELFARE of city countty State and federal money waived or "deferred' or handed over when Governments are tripping over themselves to lure the new factories "because all the HIGH paying jobs that come with it"

So they defer millions in taxes, waive millions, spend millions lobbying and more millions in infastructure improvements, give millions to get the BiG Factories all from taxpayers...that's the way modern consumer capitalism works.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Interesting quote from this article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/06/AR2010030602448_pf.html

Finally, Toyota can't say this, but I can: Some of the cases of runaway acceleration could have been caused by driver error. Think about the times you've been in an accident, a near-miss or -- more to the point -- a distracted-driving situation that almost veered out of control. You remember the white-hot spike of fear that shot up your spine. You remember the shakes afterward. But do you remember what you did during those few seconds of panic? Do you remember where your feet and hands and eyes went?

Quoting from a 2009 Los Angeles Times article on runaway Toyota acceleration:

"Richard Schmidt, a former UCLA psychology professor and now an auto industry consultant specializing in human motor skills, said the problem almost always lies with drivers who step on the wrong pedal.

'When the driver says they have their foot on the brake, they are just plain wrong,' Schmidt said. 'The human motor system is not perfect, and it doesn't always do what it is told.' "

If you were lucky, your reflexes, muscle memory and driving experience -- and sheer chance -- saved you, and you emerged unscathed from your near-miss. But you could just have easily smashed your foot down on the wrong pedal or jerked the wheel the wrong way. Or hit the radio volume and scared yourself into a dangerous maneuver. Or made a dozen other mistakes.

And none of those would have been the fault of the automaker.

---

-----------------------------
http://www.max-attack.com

No! It can't be the driver's fault!!!!

Seriously though, people have the problem and I'm sure they get dollar signs in their eyes and don't try to stop the car for hopes of getting millions.

Shenan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interesting quote from this article:
>
> Finally, Toyota can't say this, but I can: Some of
> the cases of runaway acceleration could have been
> caused by driver error. Think about the times
> you've been in an accident, a near-miss or -- more
> to the point -- a distracted-driving situation
> that almost veered out of control. You remember
> the white-hot spike of fear that shot up your
> spine. You remember the shakes afterward. But do
> you remember what you did during those few seconds
> of panic? Do you remember where your feet and
> hands and eyes went?
>
> Quoting from a 2009 Los Angeles Times article on
> runaway Toyota acceleration:
>
> "Richard Schmidt, a former UCLA psychology
> professor and now an auto industry consultant
> specializing in human motor skills, said the
> problem almost always lies with drivers who step
> on the wrong pedal.
>
> 'When the driver says they have their foot on the
> brake, they are just plain wrong,' Schmidt said.
> 'The human motor system is not perfect, and it
> doesn't always do what it is told.' "
>
> If you were lucky, your reflexes, muscle memory
> and driving experience -- and sheer chance --
> saved you, and you emerged unscathed from your
> near-miss. But you could just have easily smashed
> your foot down on the wrong pedal or jerked the
> wheel the wrong way. Or hit the radio volume and
> scared yourself into a dangerous maneuver. Or made
> a dozen other mistakes.
>
> And none of those would have been the fault of the
> automaker.
>
> -----------------------------
>

Gawddamn academics and You Shenandoah gawddam furriner, this is America gawddammit and there's one rule above all others in America and that is nothing is ever your fault!

Now I'm only Half-gringo so I don't have THAT delusion, and I know I sometimes do make huge blunders and I have nearly certainly 1000s of times more accidents--serious for just a second here, I mean thousands---than 99.9% of people in America.

I am shocked when I look back at the hours spent monthly on moto-cross bikes practicing and trying things out but it could have been in the 30-50 hours a month for years and when you drive that much in horrible conditions, you crash.
Lots. Hundreds of times.

I can't think of a single crash that was from a design fault and only a few from 1967 thru 1992 that a mechanic thing was a factor at all except shocks being valved wrong that I did.

All those thousands of crashes were ME fucking up--or occasionally somebody hitting me.

An English ex-pursuit cop teaching advanced driving once said "There's two things most men think they are just slightly above average in.
The other one is driving cars".

And I once said "And they're wrong in both..."

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

JohnLane Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I've spoke with many with 'fake' joints.
>
> The docs are very good at it today.
>
> You will wonder for years why you waited so long.
> Should have robbed a bank sooner to pay for it.
>
> Just one knee? While riding Motorcycles in the
> 70s(?) you beat the hell out of more then
> shoulders and knees.
No both are fucked but I'm bone on bone on the right and it's fuxxored. I spent I don't know but maybe 12-14 hours on Al's thing on Friday on concrete and I's still fucked today.
But I broke every finger min 2-4 times, left pinkie maybe 10-12 times, ulna radius, mid shaft tibia compound, teeth, nose, clavical, anterior cruciate both sides ripped loose several times, lateral meniscus fucked 3 times R and once or twice left, but just likje any other cross0-idot we'd jump up, kickstart the bike and GO.

The worst was clearly the badly crushed discs in the spine, that was pinching the nerves like when anybody as gotten a pinched nerve only it didn't abate for 10 years.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Hey John. Didn't mean to offend with my anti-union comments. I was apprehensive about posting such, but this site was set up so that anyone could voice any opinion - however contrary - and not be penalized as a result. So long as we're all mutually respectful, right? Despite my knowing full well that you would disagree, and even thinking maybe I was completely off base in some kind of purely black and white utopian daze, I felt I *had to* post it, otherwise I'd be doing myself a disservice.

We've spoken before. I hope I've conveyed that I'm not against people organizing, especially not the little people who do, quite often, get thrown under the bus by filthy scumbag politicos and silver-tongued, ivy league douche bags, but I *am* against people organizing to somehow take advantage of others.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by ignorance, right?

---

Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

JV hath said:

>
> Now had the owner part respected the worker part
> of me and not driven it so hard, it would have
> worked steadier for more years and i would not be
> going into hospital at 0'dark thirty tomorrow to
> have my knee cut out and thrown away and a
> replacement one inserted.
>

Ouch ouch ouch!

Best of luck at the meat-cutter's tomorrow, may your new knee have lots of go-fast parts and the nurses give you lots of yummy drugs! Just think of the swings you'll be able to give with the Kevvie bat if you can really get your legs behind it!!!!

I'll be thinking of you.

---

Andrew Steere
Lyndeborough, NH
KB1PJY