HKS trans re-build

With those ratios using a 4.62 r&p and a 65cm rally tyre your top speed will be 143mph at 7000rpms. With a 63.5cm it will only decrease it to 140mph and a 44mph 1st gear.

You should really try to find something in the range of 5 to 5.5:1 - It would make 5th gear usable at ~100mph and a ~130mph 6th.

Ted Andkilde Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Call Alex at DentSport, they had a few of Ramana's
> old boxes kicking around the shop and may have
> some parts or a line on spares.
>
> 781-551-3399
>
> Pure mathematics is the enemy of every truly
> creative man -- Sir Alec


I spoke to Alex, great guy! He couldn't hlep me directly, but gave me a few options to try. Thanks for the lead Ted.

Oh... the Canadian HKS PRO dealer who was suer they coudl get parst, got the same story as em... hsip us teh box and we'll re-build it here in Califoria...

Weird business model.

-Martin.

Cosworth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> With those ratios using a 4.62 r&p and a 65cm
> rally tyre your top speed will be 143mph at
> 7000rpms. With a 63.5cm it will only decrease it
> to 140mph and a 44mph 1st gear.
>
> You should really try to find something in the
> range of 5 to 5.5:1 - It would make 5th gear
> usable at ~100mph and a ~130mph 6th.


And then you could have a wonderful 2 car length first.
Were it a nornal aspirated motor I'd say 5.1 with 65cm tires.
With a 2.25 to 2.35 first..

With that 2.6 first and a turbo motor, I'd do no shorter than 4.6 final drive.
Oddly enough that's about what Ford usually used in their cars with 2,0 turbo and 66 cm tires (and 2.35 first)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Martin,

you don't need reverse....leave it out, save the weight, and go faster



and mmmm...Steam Whistle!

---

Chris

Do It Sidewayz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin,
>
> you don't need reverse....leave it out, save the
> weight, and go faster
>
>
>
> and mmmm...Steam Whistle!
>
>
>
> Chris

One of the better drivers in North America was a guy we got to see for just a glimpse of Eric Eaton. I knew Eric back when he was a punk kid all hyper competitive when he was 19 and I was 31. Knew his Dad a lot better who own and ran "Husky-Maico NW" At some point in like '82 I talked to him and his Dad about doing full time Professional racing in Internationals primarily in France and maybe Italy like I had done 2 seasons of..
He goes off with a good friend like I suggested and they have a good time, win some races, make bouncy bouncyand boum boum boum! with Frenchie and Italiana bellas regazzas, and won a STACK of dough.
Just-a like-a I's said.
Did way better than I did racing---but I did way better with the bellisimo regazza.......

Next I hear of Eric was 1999, he was advertising for used rally tires on the old "Rallyracingnews" (at least I was sure it was him since I figured rally is the thing that makes sense when you've pounded your brains to youghurt AND the spine and knees and shoulders are beginning to creak...)
So I call and it was him and lotsa "How'd it go way back then, what have you been doing....

2000 I drove with a real good guy named Josh Long who worked in Eric bike shop and was also house mate from Boston straight to Tacoma 3330 Miles towing a load of stuff and the Saab rally car, we pull up in front of the shop after driving 4 days nearly no stop--Eric comes out---now we have seen eachother in 17 years remember--
and Eric comes out and says
Johnitsgreat to see ya whathas it been (17 years I say groggy)man--oh haveyou everrbuilt a Maz-dog GTX tranny?

So we get some Trippleshot Lattes and i go to work.
AOK until Eric tells me he read some TRICK DEAL on the INTRA-WEBZERZ Maz-dog Forum that you can make the trans "WAY MORE RELIABLE--if you leave off 5th gear and the junk associated with 5th.."

Now you guys know me, I'm fairly good at times on mechanical things but I never have liked "trick" solutions cause they're always bullshit and at this time I was already seeing what a huge HUGE % of online blather waswrong and dumb but I couldn't convince him "That's crazy--I'm too tired it explain how car trannies work but something will happen bad...

He INSISTS "Why would they put it on a forum if there was a problem? Somebody figured this out IT HAS TO WORK!!!!!!

OK,
so no 5th gear pair or shift fork. Like whatever , DOOOOoooooOOOOd..

Only later do we find what was overlooked: reverse and 5th were both on the same shift fork, the reverse refuse to stay engaged, you select ease the clutch 1mm and BOOM it'd jump out---1mm, jump out....

So 14 hours after I had arrived the car was loaded up and we set off for Los Angles and Rim-job of the World.


We saved weight, and it was faster!
And they didn't need reverse!

(But they were on a roll, they , with the beater-est car in the event had driven up to a solid third and were reeling in whoever was in 2nd.................


and they got a puncture...


And it transpires Eric and co-driver Kenny Ahlmqvist ahd NEVER PRACTICES changing tires, had no routine---
DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO GET THE JACK OUT of the HOLDER!!!!!!


And dropped to 8th OA.


Then drove back up to 4th OAand was really closing in on who ever the pretty boys were in 2nd and 3rd....

But it's LA, they "heroes" need their beauty sleep, so the event ends before Eric could swoop them all---and I know with just 20 miles or so more, he would won overall.
Good drive.

But we left out the gears!!!
We went faster!
Saved weight..





PS
I strangled him till his eyes bugged out about the "Trick solution" once we were back in PNW.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cosworth Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > With those ratios using a 4.62 r&p and a
> 65cm
> > rally tyre your top speed will be 143mph at
> > 7000rpms. With a 63.5cm it will only decrease
> it
> > to 140mph and a 44mph 1st gear.
> >
> > You should really try to find something in
> the
> > range of 5 to 5.5:1 - It would make 5th gear
> > usable at ~100mph and a ~130mph 6th.
>
>
> And then you could have a wonderful 2 car length
> first.
> Were it a nornal aspirated motor I'd say 5.1 with
> 65cm tires.
> With a 2.25 to 2.35 first..
>
> With that 2.6 first and a turbo motor, I'd do no
> shorter than 4.6 final drive.
> Oddly enough that's about what Ford usually used
> in their cars with 2,0 turbo and 66 cm tires (and
> 2.35 first)
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.rallyrace.net/jvab
> CALL +1 206 431-9696
> Remember! Pacific Standard Time
> is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

IMO having 5th go 115mhp and 6th 143mph is more of a roadracing type setup.

With a 4.6 in there it just makes the lower gears way too long,

1st 44
2nd 60
3rd 75
4th 92
5th 115
6th 143

for example with a 5.1 it would be a much more attractive

1st 41mph --> hardly a 2 car length 1st gear, and in fact just perfect.
2nd 53
3rd 67
4th 84
5th 105
6th 130

Paulinho, sometimes---OFTEN---precedence --that which higher budget teams like oooooh say Ford motorsport---ought to take precedence over opinion and calculators.

When they used a comparable 2 liter motor with a nice 1to 1 top 5 speed Getrag they used 4.67 (9:42 tooth count)....

Martin just happens to have snagged a 6 speed.
Doesn't mean he has to use 5th or 6th on stages, he can use them on transits and have a nice cruise rpm.

once again you're working on track cars and I'm suggesting things we know works nice with 2 to 2.3 turbo cars...

I would strongly advise martin to pay heed to what Ford did since the motor is VERY similar in bhp and especially torque and should have a nice wide powerband..
nice wide powerband of a torquey turbo motor means he doesn't have to have or use close ratios, and indeed the may not be super helpful..
Were he doing a hot normal aspirated motor with max torque and max bhp higher in the rev range, I'd be saying "Get a 5.1 in there" since we see that that has been proven time after time to be the gear of choice for 2 liter motors that rev to xxxx rpm and use 64-65 cm tires.

Our friends elsewhere seem to aim for around 70-75 km/hr in first for a nice drive off the line...

Finally, the chances of finding a 4.63 or a 4.56 for a realistic cost are about eleventy-billion times better than finding a 5.1
You seem constantly to forget that most humans don't have the budget for a LOT of the things you recommend---probably cause where you work and who your customers are have comparatively limitless budgets compared to the 99% of us normal "Prole-le-rallists".

And ever notice that Subies, Misterbitchis, Ford later GpA all use 4.4, 4.37 or 4.44 and they seem to do real good (TURBO, in those cases with 36 or now 34mm restrictors.)

Also since you don't state an RPM your figures show, it's sorta not clear if the figures are good or just assumptions..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I thought about putting it back together without the reverse idler gear(since it's shrapnel anyway). There would be no reverse, but since reverse shares a selector with 1st, first would still work. I decided that having no reverse gear would be a bad thing, knowing my luck we'd be expected to reverse at tech.. anything after that we could claim to have "lost reverse".. at tech we've never had it...

Steam Whistle rocks...

Regarding the final driver... good discussion. It nice to hear different opinions, Given I'll be doing Targa, and there is almost 2000km of transits I'd like to have 6th as a decent OD gear where the motor isn't buzzing... If I ever find parts the 4.62 that I have is looking like the winner.. I've been searchin and haven't found 5.xx gears anywhere for the R200, although I'm sure they exist, I haven't found them.

-Martin.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paulinho, sometimes---OFTEN---precedence --that
> which higher budget teams like oooooh say Ford
> motorsport---ought to take precedence over opinion
> and calculators.
>
> When they used a comparable 2 liter motor with a
> nice 1to 1 top 5 speed Getrag they used 4.67 (9:42
> tooth count)....
>
> Martin just happens to have snagged a 6 speed.
> Doesn't mean he has to use 5th or 6th on stages,
> he can use them on transits and have a nice cruise
> rpm.
>
> once again you're working on track cars and I'm
> suggesting things we know works nice with 2 to 2.3
> turbo cars...
>
> I would strongly advise martin to pay heed to what
> Ford did since the motor is VERY similar in bhp
> and especially torque and should have a nice wide
> powerband..
> nice wide powerband of a torquey turbo motor means
> he doesn't have to have or use close ratios, and
> indeed the may not be super helpful..
> Were he doing a hot normal aspirated motor with
> max torque and max bhp higher in the rev range,
> I'd be saying "Get a 5.1 in there" since we see
> that that has been proven time after time to be
> the gear of choice for 2 liter motors that rev to
> xxxx rpm and use 64-65 cm tires.
>
> Our friends elsewhere seem to aim for around 70-75
> km/hr in first for a nice drive off the line...
>
> Finally, the chances of finding a 4.63 or a 4.56
> for a realistic cost are about eleventy-billion
> times better than finding a 5.1
> You seem constantly to forget that most humans
> don't have the budget for a LOT of the things you
> recommend---probably cause where you work and who
> your customers are have comparatively limitless
> budgets compared to the 99% of us normal
> "Prole-le-rallists".
>
> And ever notice that Subies, Misterbitchis, Ford
> later GpA all use 4.4, 4.37 or 4.44 and they seem
> to do real good (TURBO, in those cases with 36 or
> now 34mm restrictors.)
>
> Also since you don't state an RPM your figures
> show, it's sorta not clear if the figures are good
> or just assumptions..
>
>
>
>
>
> John Vanlandingham
> Sleezattle, WA, USA
>
> Vive le Prole-le-ralliat
>
> www.rallyrace.net/jvab
> CALL +1 206 431-9696
> Remember! Pacific Standard Time
> is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.


C'mon John read by previous post, the RPM used is 7000 which is a practical max for that engine. And the ratios and examples you give are for vehicles that would never see over 6000 unless its a missshift.

As for budget, that I have no clues what those things cost for either ratios so I dont give a fuck, all I was doing is giving the guy the ratio for the speed HE ASKED for (200km+) earlier in the post. NOT what those Ford papers you keep as gospel have to say.

In case you didnt know, before Ahmerica, I worked for Peugeot Sport as the driveline engineer on a very famous hot little car that towards the end of its works life had a 7spd! So yeah I know a bit more about gearboxes than just using an rpm calculator.

Now if in fact the 5+ is too much $$$ or impossible to find, then the 4.62 is obviously the solution.

Paul, fuck this gospel shit.
I ain't religious especially no Christian thing, so nothing is gospel.

The Ford stuff is an extremely useful STARTING POINT for those who don't have experience in choosing suspension, gearing brakes, like 99.9% of car guys..

The information is specifically rally related, covers more than 20 years from mid 70s to late 90s, all drive formats, and has real numbers for all sorts of things, far far better than the advice 99% will get on silly forums where VW guys with the stock GTI box say "I have the close ratio box, that's all you need!!!!"

You know that here there are only a minute few who have ever had a close ratio box in a car, fewer still that have had a turbo motor that also has close ratios, THEY need something to start from.
For those who bother to read them carefully, and remember the context of when (was it 40mm restrictor days, 38? 36?)

And as usual you confuse me: what are you saying "And the ratios and examples you give are for vehicles that would never see over 6000 unless its a missshift. "

Which vehicle and motor do you believe I am referring to?

Are you comparing apples to oranges?

And glad to see that budget isn't anything you consider when posting info, I was convinced that's the case and good to see it confirmed...

Budget is a massive consideration for everybody I know..

Finally, why make allusions to "a very famous hot little car"?
Just say which car, the series, etc, it's more interesting than vague allusions..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

john vanlandingham Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Finally, why make allusions to "a very famous hot
> little car"?
> Just say which car, the series, etc, it's more
> interesting than vague allusions..

306 with driver Adruzilo Lopes, under Carlos Barros as the technical director.

I appreciate everyone opinions, but especially those with relevant experience. And just because I,like so many, can't afford the "money's no object" option, doesn't mean it isn't good to know what that option is.

-Martin.

MRWmotorsports Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I appreciate everyone opinions, but especially
> those with relevant experience. And just because
> I,like so many, can't afford the "money's no
> object" option, doesn't mean it isn't good to know
> what that option is.
>
> -Martin.

The money is no object option is to burn through wives to the point where you can't remember exactly how many you've been married to.

---

Andrew M
Onterrible
30ish

hudson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MRWmotorsports Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I appreciate everyone opinions, but
> especially
> > those with relevant experience. And just
> because
> > I,like so many, can't afford the "money's no
> > object" option, doesn't mean it isn't good to
> know
> > what that option is.
> >
> > -Martin.
>
> The money is no object option is to burn through
> wives to the point where you can't remember
> exactly how many you've been married to.
>
Don't forget crashing Bugatti Veyrons in front of crowds
>
>
> Andrew M
> Onterrible
> 30ish