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Anders Green
Anders Green
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Anders Green
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 11:16AM
Yeah, unless the route tulips told you to go down to that gas station before checking in to service, you have your choice between:

1) deviating from the course 5 minutes
2) servicing outside of a designated service area 10 minutes

If all you got was 20 seconds for checking in two minutes late, I wouldn't make too much of a fuss. winking smiley

The philosophy varies from person to person, region to region, and series to series, but a good starting point is:

If the organizers/officials did something that directly caused the problem that resulted in your penalty, you probably have a good shot at getting that penalty removed. Otherwise.... maybe not.

In this example, the organizers didn't hire a slow guy to fill gas, or choose the shift change period, or anything else that caused your problem. So, I think I would agree with the steward on this one.

Now, one could say that the organizers chose the route, therefore picking the station, and the organizers also chose the amount of allowed time, and they didn't account for shift change. All that is true. But that's just part of the tradition of this sport: certain actions (like road-side fill up) are allowed, but (as shown in this example) they are not 100% guaranteed to actually happen. That's just part of racing in a big wide public area of the real world. So you adjust your plans and expectations.

However, more helpfully, I have this suggested alternative course of action: arriving at service 20 minutes early, stay right there at the check-in control (waiting) and tell your crew to go down and get gas in some containers. If they didn't _have_ gas gans, again, be prepared, but you probably could have borrowed some from another team that had already emptied some. If you also didn't have crew... then yes, this gets more difficult, you have to borrow crew and containers! winking smiley

Cheers,
Anders

ps: the whole thing falls directly under "Force Majeure"


Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2010 11:19AM by Anders Green.
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12xalt
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12xalt
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 11:31AM
Quote
acrane
Fun Rally. Never thought I'd finish within 2 sec of Jardevall.
We thought we had a battle for Gp2, with David Henderson, but it was a timing error (due to passing a car on stage 3, that was corrected as we were leaving the second service). he had us by ~10 sec per stage.
this was a low prep, low key event for us.
after blowing a headgasket and not finishing DooWops this year, we had a break all summer.
wildwest was cancelled 2hrs before our entry was going in.
so this event was to make sure the cooling system was up to snuff,
test out our sweet new intercoms, and use the last of my 14" tires.
Stage 1, was slow and loose, getting my gravel arms back. we took some time to adjust the Mic and levels on the helmets.
I noticed a lot of understeer, the front tires had bald shoulders from a day at PacificGP.com 's go cart track.
stage 2 we enjoyed (though looking at the scores now, I wonder how Dave in the mazda3, a hood river OR local managed the 2nd fastest time and a 25s advantage over us)
stage 3 the curse of the grey turbo VWs hit (Demon rally had their hood up and recon rally rolled)
stage 4 we did a sweet ditch grind on a right5
service we swapped some tires around and put our race face on (no incar for the rest of the day)
stage 5 was our last run through Gilhouly where we crashed off last year (opposite direction), this time Dave was 21 seconds slower than his first time, and we were 4 seconds behind him, within 1 second of our first run through.
stage 6, another 9 sec behind Dave, a fun long stage (nothing like 15min of racing)
O-control, speed check caught a lot of people going over the limit. this cost Dave a minute, which he neglected to mention to us before we started -
stage 7, Never give up!
We finished!
The motor is fun and solid.
service team Operation Shit show! came through again.
Sadness to the folks that couldn't finish. *Dave Clark was describing to me how his car handled over dinner, and while I never got to give it a test drive, I'm amazed that he kept it on the road, much less set times within a few seconds of Medcroft.
thanks to Volunteers and organizers.
Thanks to Charles and the 2wd Prize fund.

we'll have incar up tomorrow afternoon
DooWops!DooWops!DooWops! (or Big white? I still have some 14" snow tires . . .)

I was really happy to see how well you guys did in 2wd and overall. If you do make it to big white, and I do too, you know you'll have a fan there cheering you on.
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phlat65
Sean Medcroft
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phlat65
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 01:10PM
Quote
heymagic
Quote
phlat65
We had a good Rally for sure! Recce was quite frustrating for us, I really had very little confidence in my notes at the start, and it shows in the times, as i dropped 30 seconds off of the second running through 17 road. After we ran the 17 road and Gillholey, I realized we did a great job, and could go a bit faster on the next runs.

When we recce'd fir mountain, none of the junctions were taped off, and we went the wrong way and made notes off into the woods somewhere. the first run through there we had no notes for the last 5 miles or so, with lots of 5's and 6's that I braked way too much for, and lost some time.

We matched stage times with some quick 2wd guys this weekend, and I know I have quite a bit more speed in me.

The penalty sucked, and I feel it should have been dropped, but oh well. Here is the story. In the route was a 10 minute stop at a gas station for fuel, so that was what I calculated for my fuel useage. When I got to the station, they were changing shifts, and there would be no fuel for 5-10 minutes so we continued on. After the next stage was service, so we got to the service in 20 minutes early, so went down the road to get gas since we were on fumes, and checked in 2 minutes late. Protested to the steward, and he pretty much said I should have been prepared and had some gas at service, so tough luck. My problem with that is the fuel stop in the route was not available to us, so we had to improvise. Was I wrong to think we could get it dropped?

Did you just ask or did you file an inquiry or ptotest? You would have had a chance of no penalty IF you had have waited at the designated fuel stop. If there was a delay and that was documented. Once you moved on everything changes. It sounds like you left service and went somewhere else for gas and then returned? At some events that could be called leaving the route and you could get a penalty for that. We don't usually do that in the PNW but it can happen.

We did not leave service, we were 20 minutes early so we went down the road to get gas, which was a cluster too... did not file a protest, but was told the same thing by Simon and the steward we talked to. Oh well, just another learning experience.
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Morison
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Morison
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 03:08PM
As Anders said, if all you got was a 20 second penalty for being 2 minutes late, you got off pretty easily. I'm a strong believer in winning or losing on the stages and wouldn't typically call for a procedural rule violation... but rules are rules. (Also consider that not fueling according to the route book meant that you carried less fuel through that section which could have been a competitive advantage - I haven't seen the schedule so don't know if this is significant or not)

I would never rely on an outside provider to get something done in a timely manour during an event. Jerry cans with fuel at the service park is the only way to do fuel in my mind. Using outside providers during an event is risky. I remember at Oregon in 2006 or 2006 the cars were transited through a drive-through car wash on the way to the final MTC. As we were in line, waiting our turn, I realised we'd never make the check-in time and there was no way to get out of the line. I, and several other co-drivers, got out and ran our time cards to the MTC a couple of blocks away. I was a bit pissed that the organisers allowed late check-ins for the teams that didn't run over their cards, but didn't think for a minute about writing paper on it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2010 03:09PM by Morison.
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Anders Green
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Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 03:29PM
Quote
phlat65
We did not leave service, we were 20 minutes early so we went down the road to get gas
I'm confused by that part. How do you not leave, but go somewhere else? The service area was Toll bridge Park, with an in and out control. Maybe I've got it wrong. So tell me where you (the people) were and went, where the rally car was and went, and when the checking in to service happened.

Cheers smiling smiley

Anders


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NoCoast
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NoCoast
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 03:37PM
Some forward thinking event that I won't name but will say was on the national calendar and is now no more and possibly one of the best organized events I've been to, had in their supps that the final MTC would be a declared time to account for car wash time.
I started out this same rally once with a situation that according to the supps would have been a 120 minute penalty. I didn't care since I was the only one in class, but they chose instead to give me a 10 minute time penalty. Time penalties off stage always suck. But the rules are necessary and have a purpose. And you still end up with people like Matt Iorio who was notorious for sitting in line and checking in a minute late to get an extra dust window. The person behind has to rush in and often got a time penalty because by the time Matt checked in and was done with the control worker, the next minute was up. I saw at least two inquiries at two different rallies from Iorio doing this. It's made me consider that some time penalties should be greater.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2010 03:41PM by NoCoast.
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heymagic
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Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 03:40PM
I would have written an inquiry just so you become more familiar with the procedures.

By going down the road rather than into service it sounds like you deviated from the route. Entering service has little to do with it. We weren't there to see how this was laid out however. Some events will only allow you to fuel at service, others will designate a certain gas station that is allowed. Everybody does it differently.

Personally I think if a gas station entrance is on the route or immediately adjacent to the route, within sight of the corner, it should be allowed for fuel, snacks and potti stops. That somewhat enhances the value of rally to a community. If you have to go around the block, out of sight of the route, past service down the road or whatever takes you from eyesight of the route or competitors then that can become an issue.

Part of our history is the TSD aspect which is the transits, time keeping and route following. It can cost you depending on who is doing/watching whom. There are old stories of people driving off the route and working on cars or even swapping cars back in the day. During the 'real" FIA Olympus we marked the car bodies with a special paint to identify them thru the event....
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hoche
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hoche
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 03:41PM
Sean, I saw your inquiry and briefly talked to guy manning MTC and it seemed pretty clearly written. I wasn't a Steward or CRO (just doing scoring), so I wasn't privy to the investigation or logic behind the decision.

However, in flipping through the supps I didn't see anything that says that you COULD leave the route, which means that you CAN'T. So my interpretation would have been that it was your responsibility to make sure you had enough fuel to do the whole event without sidetracking, and that you were lucky to not have gotten a bigger penalty.

I'm a pump-gas guy so I hate to say that, but take it as a live'n'learn situation. It can get pretty frustrating at times. Most organizers are pretty good about it, but some seem to forget that there're people that don't carry 50 gallon drums with them whereever they go.

Keith, apparently, is one.
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Morison
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Morison
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 04:47PM
Quote
hoche
Most organizers are pretty good about it, but some seem to forget that there're people that don't carry 50 gallon drums with them whereever they go.
Keith, apparently, is one.

Really?

It could be that all three rallies I am involved with as a part of the organizing committee happen in area where the closest gas station is ~25 miles away at best. I can't imagine showing up to an event without enough gas in jerry cans with me in the service park. for four of six events in the Western Canadian Rally Championship you will NEED to bring your own fuel to the service park because there are NO gas stations near the routes.

Making sure you have the consumables you need when you need them is part of the game isn't it?
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phlat65
Sean Medcroft
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phlat65
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 05:18PM
Quote
Anders Green
Quote
phlat65
We did not leave service, we were 20 minutes early so we went down the road to get gas
I'm confused by that part. How do you not leave, but go somewhere else? The service area was Toll bridge Park, with an in and out control. Maybe I've got it wrong. So tell me where you (the people) were and went, where the rally car was and went, and when the checking in to service happened.

Cheers smiling smiley

Anders

We were 20 minutes early to the service in. The service in was on the side of the road before the turn in to toll bridge park. We stopped across the street, I ran over to the check and asked if i would be passing the control if I continued down the road, he said no, so we drove to the next town to get gas. 2.5 miles to the first station that only has 87 octane, so down the road another 3 miles, wait for the girl to pump gas, then proceed at the speed limit back to the check in, 2 minutes late. I could have speed, drove like a maniac back and made it, but my reasoning was that if I come in under 10 minutes, which was the original alloted time that I could not take advantage of, then my protest should stand.

I was the only person to ask at the drivers meeting about fuel, and the 10 minute break at the gas stop, that was in the route book was explained to me. Why should the penalty stand if the organizer's provided fuel stop was not available to me, and only me?

I am not mad, it is what it is, but that 24 seconds broke the tie for 12th, and moved me past Josh in 11th.

Funny thing is we caught the car we tied with in the last stage, half mile from the end, and could not pass, which would have broken the tie also. There was no where for them to pull over, and the stop after the finish was EXTREMELY short on wet Tarmac so I hung back and hit the brakes early to be safe... Hindsight and all that.
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phlat65
Sean Medcroft
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phlat65
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 05:25PM
I understand where the need to be prepared is, and in this case, I was not due to not having fuel in service.
The route clearly stated an instruction and 10 minute wait at a gas station. The station could not dispense fuel to me when I came in, on time, to the included fuel stop.

What if the fuel truck carrying everyones gas left my can off, and I had to go get gas, and was 2 minutes late, would the penalty stand in that case? how is this different?

Like I said, not mad, just trying to see what I can expect for the next issue.
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Morison
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Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 05:49PM
So, you're saying that ALL fueling was done at that service station and the organisers transported fuel to that location on behalf of the teams? (just looking for clarification)
You say that you were the only one who was affected by this. Were you the only one buying gas from the pumps?

As to your question, If you had delivered your fuel to the organisers as expected and the organisers failed to bring your fuel, you would have more than enough grounds to fight the penalty. If you were required to buy fuel from the pump at that station you would have grounds to fight the penalty.

The problem here is that you left the fuel stop as indicated and chose to fuel at a different time and place. Had you waited out the shift change and taken an even larger penalty I think you would have stood a much better chance of getting that one overturned.
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heymagic
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heymagic
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 06:04PM
You could have filed an inquiry on the not being allowed to pass. Scores can be adjusted on stuff like that.

When you passed service and went miles down the road you violated a very important rule, entering service or not has nothing to do with this. You got lucky on that one.

Back to the gas station. You should have waited if you didn't have fuel in service. The station 'failure' was force majure and could have been dealt with by an inquiry or protest. I would have had the station attendant confirm the shift change or delivery issue or whatever. We had a similar deal at Idaho a coupe years ago where a firetruck was blocking the road due to a fire and cost a couple competitors transit time. We comfirmed the problem and waived the penalties.

When you left the station you accepted the situation and responsibilty became yours. IF you had fuel in service or borrowed fuel in service it would have been a non-issue. Since you didn't you left the route (an illegal action) and got the penalty from going to two different gas stations and being late coming back. Penalty should have been worse. You are a hero for not speeding however !!
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Doug Heredos
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Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 06:29PM
Hey Sean-

I was bummed to hear about your problem. Heck- I would have been mad if I pulled up to a gas station and got that story even if I wasn't in the middle of a rally. That's a lame excuse and poor customer service.

Generally, you should always have enough fuel in service for that day of rally. Organizers sometimes offer a little courtesy buffer in the schedule (like Simon did here)- but you are at risk of showing up and finding them out of your grade of fuel, or simply busy with other customers, etc. Occasionally we would need our service guys to run out in the middle of the rally and fill our cans again- depends on how many cans we owned.

One of the things that makes rally fun to me is the random shit that can happen- trees falling between cars, animals on the stage, distractions caused by the moon, co-driver barfage, cars blocking the stage (moving or not), etc etc... It makes it more interesting and far more of an adventure.

Looks like you still had a good rally and some decent stage times. Looking forward to seeing you out there again.

Doug
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Doug Heredos
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Doug Heredos
Re: Where's the blow by blow, stage by stage reports for Mt.Hood?
October 25, 2010 06:34PM
Quote
acrane

O-control, speed check caught a lot of people going over the limit. this cost Dave a minute, which he neglected to mention to us before we started -
stage 7, Never give up!

Hey Adam- You did a great job this weekend. Congrats.

Just curious- Why would Dave tell you if they got caught in an O-Control? They probably didn't know whether they were busted or not. It's not like there was a big flashing sign telling them what speed the radar gun had on it. Or did every car have to stop and chat with the radar guy? (I didn't make it to that point in the rally)... Even if they did know, I'm not sure I would expect them to proactively share that...

Doug
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