See, looks like I may end up with a FWD car real soon. Its tight, but hopefully intime for some local RX events near by...

Any tips for someone who has not drive a FWD car in anger before?

Quote
BobOfTheFuture
See, looks like I may end up with a FWD car real soon. Its tight, but hopefully intime for some local RX events near by...

Any tips for someone who has not drive a FWD car in anger before?

First, don't be angry, stay calm.
Second: the JOB you have to do is the same regardless of drivetrain config. You MUST get weight onto the OUTSIDE FRONT wheel or you will not turn. You can shift the weight forward the same way with any car by using the most powerful system in the car, even a stock car: the brakes.
And brakes are of course most effective when the car is going straight ahead, so BRAKE HARD In a STRAIGHT LINE, and as soon as you're done braking, while the weight is still on the front---in other words, while the frontsuspension is still compressed and before the car has risen up, initiate the corner.

Then get back on the gas to the degree needed.

In PNW rallycrosses I've seen and been to the courses are so tight and slow there's no need for any special driving techniques, suspension or anything except, with apologies to the medical oath "First do no harm" I say "First, do no stupid"

Pretty much it.

whaddya getting?
What's the longer term plan?

I am certainly no expert, but I'll throw in my two cents for the sake of conversation, and I've been wondering about this stuff for a while.

As JV said above, with whateverwheel drive the main idea is to brake as hard and late as possible, get the car to start to rotate, then get back into as much power as possible without losing control.

The interesting part is when it goes wrong, which is either entering to fast, or too much power spining the drive wheels and losing their grip. With rwd if you get into to much power (er, um, if you have it) too soon you oversteer and spin. With fwd, too much gas makes you understeer and push straight off the corner.

As a fledgling rwd guy I know that overpowering will help the car rotate, if its not coming around, which is big fun, but slows you down a lot.

With fwd it seems like once you have cut and started rotating you need to carefully steer inside the line of the corner, and control power to contol rotation. Back when I was a hotshit mountain biker (I know super lame and nothing to do with motorsports) I could do this thing where I would come into a corner overly hot, cut really hard and get the front wheel to drift. This would act as just enough braking (sliding slows you down fast) until it would hook up and sling me around the corner. I've imagined that fast fwd might involve something like this as you are really dealing with front end grip there. Power allows you to DECREASE grip at the driven wheels, which can help you rotate in rwd.

What so you think FWD people, are you ever understeering on purpose to slow down? You know we rwdrivers oversteer on purpose all the time when things get puckery.

This is interesting to me because a awd car might do both and is supposed to do neither, which ends up being the job of fancy diffs or computer brains

John, Ill let ya know when It becomes more solid.

I origionally was going to prep a Subaru I picked up, but I found something that looks ok and is prepped already so I may have to flip it. Im goin to see it this weekend. (and, as per what you and others said another time, Im working on a scrutineer to see it before I buy, no suprises. )

Once its a go Ill show off some pics. In the mean time, I was just wondering about techniques, nothing wrong with learning from thoes who (may) know eh?

Don't try to be fast, try to be smooth. This is a lot easier in FWD.

What FWD is it?

Bob,
left foot braking works wonders, not so much at low speeds but effective still. as stated before weight transfer to the front wheels BEFORE turning is key, I would rather be pulled down a gravel road instead of being pushed.
You looking at the egt is NJ? i sent some pics of the cage to RC and a tech got back to me. looks like the rear bars will need to be replaced, the door sillbar is a bit fuzzy but may need to be replaced as well. let me know if it falls through for you. i may not be able to make it down to check it out until the weekend after thanksgiving
Brian

Edit:
Per JVL's Correction



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2010 02:05PM by BJosephD.

right foot to the floor, left foot for the brakes. Try not to use the handbrake unless you really really have to, because momentum is your friend, especially on small rallyx courses.

Quote
BJosephD
Bob,
left foot braking works wonders, not so much at low speeds but effective still. as stated before weight transfer to the front wheels while turning is key, I would rather be pulled down a gravel road instead of being pushed.
You looking at the egt is NJ? i sent some pics of the cage to RC and a tech got back to me. looks like the rear bars will need to be replaced, the door sillbar is a bit fuzzy but may need to be replaced as well. let me know if it falls through for you. i may not be able to make it down to check it out until the weekend after thanksgiving
Brian

Actually I said weight transfer to the front WHILE CAR STRAIGHT AHEAD, specifically NOT while turning.

I'm a simple minded guy, and I have this odd belief that I should try and do ONE THING really well. rather than try to do several things simultaneously.
Also my poor limited brain was forged into shape on the anvil of moto-cross and on motorcycles it is highly evident--OBVIOUS---that we can both accelerate and decelerate at truly nuts rates as long as the bike is straight ahead and straight up 90 to the surface.

So it was hammered into my head "Do one thing well"
Gas it.
Brake
Initiate
gas it
Brake
initiate

But then I KNOW I'm not some hero guy so I don't concern myself with ADVANCED BREAKING TECHNIQUES because I have had good enough results just braking hard---and beating TONS of people who, with vastly less experience, insist they have mastered left foot braking

Just like recce, I have to wonder : if people insist they need this advanced level shit at the beginner level they are , WE ARE at, when will they learn real fundamentals?
Gotta learn it some day....

As responses here indicate, LFB is super popular these days, especially for FWD.

BUT - that's not the only way. One of our local fast gravel cone-squishing guys (fast in just about everything, not just FWD) doesn't really LFB much, certainly not with the religious fervor that some do.

Best bet is to hit some rallycrosses, keep in mind John's words about weight transfer, and find what works for you.

Quote
Aaron Luptak
As responses here indicate, LFB is super popular these days, especially for FWD.

BUT - that's not the only way. One of our local fast gravel cone-squishing guys (fast in just about everything, not just FWD) doesn't really LFB much, certainly not with the religious fervor that some do.

Best bet is to hit some rallycrosses, keep in mind John's words about weight transfer, and find what works for you.

Yep, find what works for the courses. PNW course are set up so tight and slow it seems merely rolling off the gas "slows' the car, merely not driving too hard ever is key to success there.
But I've talked to guys who have copurse that allow them to get going good in 3rd gear 9with street gearing) and then yep find what works good..

But we crawl before we walk and we walk before we run.
It was pounded in my head:
Make haste slowly, learn the basics right.
Gas it
Brake
Initiate

Thems the basics for Rally

(which may NOT be the basics for a meandering crawling to slow-ish speed flat field)

as a LFB guy, it works but you don't have to do it. you use the brakes to turn. It is going to work better in a low power car where you really have to maintain momentum versus having the ability to accelerate with more power. if you are going to LFB just don't lift.

at the rallyx a combination of pitching the car and lfb may be needed. both can be quick. a little lfb helps with stability.

Quote
BJosephD
Bob,
left foot braking works wonders, not so much at low speeds but effective still. as stated before weight transfer to the front wheels BEFORE turning is key, I would rather be pulled down a gravel road instead of being pushed.
You looking at the egt is NJ? i sent some pics of the cage to RC and a tech got back to me. looks like the rear bars will need to be replaced, the door sillbar is a bit fuzzy but may need to be replaced as well. let me know if it falls through for you. i may not be able to make it down to check it out until the weekend after thanksgiving
Brian

Edit:
Per JVL's Correction

Yep, thats it. I figured for the sill, And was wondering about Door bars. having to do the rear bars would be irratating.

I only ever use left foot braking to cover up shitty suspension.

I've rode with fast locals and they don't left foot brake. But then their cars are set up well, so that when they stomp the brake, the car rotates.

Every now and then someone posts a Jean Ragnotti video. Watch the ones where they show what he's actually doing inside the car. Brake once going into the corner, accelerate out...

Quote
BobOfTheFuture
See, looks like I may end up with a FWD car real soon. Its tight, but hopefully intime for some local RX events near by...

Any tips for someone who has not drive a FWD car in anger before?

Practice practice practice!! No matter what the car we have to get the feel for it. The time to do so is well ahead of when you are trying to set stage records.

Have fun with it. Be safe.

Haha, making myself practice will be no issue. Im gonna drive the wheels offa this thing



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2010 09:48PM by BobOfTheFuture.