Quote
Pete
Every now and then someone posts a Jean Ragnotti video. Watch the ones where they show what he's actually doing inside the car.

tarmac takes a different technique altogether. I don't see any braking going on anyway.

to continue the to LFB, not to LFB thing:



Because Colin says so

I think LFB can be handy, depending on how you do it. 90% of the time when I've been on ice, I've never done it. On the ice at least, I need to be as smooth as possible to maintain the meager traction available. Usually, instead of braking as late as possible, I slowly lift throttle a bit to slow me to the speed I need to be at to turn the corner, then at the right point in the turn, I just lift again to transfer the weight to the front to rotate the rear. Pressing the brakes at all sometimes will just make you go straight and not be able to steer anymore.

I think LFB works well for maintaining that "smoothness" needed on ice, because instead of completely lifting the throttle, and THEN clamping the rotors, you can better balance the lift/brake transition, and minimize any abrupt weight transfer.

At the rallyXes I've been to, LFB wasn't useful at all. I tried it, and it didn't help, so I stopped. I think with a turboed car, it might be handy to keep spooled up so you can punch the gas as soon as you can use the power. But on a low-powered n/a car, where conservation of momentum is the primary goal, it may not be necessary.

I think it really depends on the conditions where the tires meet the ground. It's a tool a driver can use if it's needed, but it's not the be-al-end-all of driving techniques either.

---

---** To be in compliance with the Anarchy **---
Jorden R. Kleier
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA
1990 Mazdog Protege 4WD
1973

This is my take on it, and I have been known to have OK speed in FWD.

Go charging up the the turn until you think you will die, keep going till you know you will die, count to 3 then mash the brakes on, hard (the fear of death tends to motivate pressing the brakes really hard at this point).

When the car is slowed down to a point that you start to think you might live through this event, turn the wheel into the turn while still braking hard. Lift off the brake when the car starts to turn and plant your right foot firmly on the floor via the accelerator. If the car starts to understeer you may lift to re connect the wheels. If the car is oversteering do not lift for any reason, lift while oversteering - you will die.

If at this point it looks like you will be visiting the woods on the outside of the turn use the left foot to stab at the brakes with authority, like you really mean it, do not softly LFB, if you are going to do it - mean it. Note that you only need to LFB if something is going wrong, it is not an every turn action.

One around the turn make sure you use all the power the car makes till it is time to brake again, do not lift for any reason* until you are braking for the next turn. There is no coasting in rally only going, stopping and turning.

*(to be really fast you need to try and not overwhelm the tires, this is where smoothness comes into play. There is a need to roll on the power or brakes and to slowly dial in steering to prevent sudden changes at the wheels. The wheels need to get grip before mashing down the power in high powered cars. This is the advanced side of all the above)

Thanks Derek, very entertaining and informative!
Having seen you drive I can attest to this method being effective.
Still working on perfecting this method inside the car myself.

Quoted for awesomeness. Great piece of writing.

Quote
derek
This is my take on it, and I have been known to have OK speed in FWD.

Go charging up the the turn until you think you will die, keep going till you know you will die, count to 3 then mash the brakes on, hard (the fear of death tends to motivate pressing the brakes really hard at this point).

When the car is slowed down to a point that you start to think you might live through this event, turn the wheel into the turn while still braking hard. Lift off the brake when the car starts to turn and plant your right foot firmly on the floor via the accelerator. If the car starts to understeer you may lift to re connect the wheels. If the car is oversteering do not lift for any reason, lift while oversteering - you will die.

If at this point it looks like you will be visiting the woods on the outside of the turn use the left foot to stab at the brakes with authority, like you really mean it, do not softly LFB, if you are going to do it - mean it. Note that you only need to LFB if something is going wrong, it is not an every turn action.

One around the turn make sure you use all the power the car makes till it is time to brake again, do not lift for any reason* until you are braking for the next turn. There is no coasting in rally only going, stopping and turning.

*(to be really fast you need to try and not overwhelm the tires, this is where smoothness comes into play. There is a need to roll on the power or brakes and to slowly dial in steering to prevent sudden changes at the wheels. The wheels need to get grip before mashing down the power in high powered cars. This is the advanced side of all the above)

Quote
derek
This is my take on it, and I have been known to have OK speed in FWD.

Go charging up the the turn until you think you will die, keep going till you know you will die, count to 3 then mash the brakes on, hard (the fear of death tends to motivate pressing the brakes really hard at this point).

When the car is slowed down to a point that you start to think you might live through this event, turn the wheel into the turn while still braking hard. Lift off the brake when the car starts to turn and plant your right foot firmly on the floor via the accelerator. If the car starts to understeer you may lift to re connect the wheels. If the car is oversteering do not lift for any reason, lift while oversteering - you will die.

If at this point it looks like you will be visiting the woods on the outside of the turn use the left foot to stab at the brakes with authority, like you really mean it, do not softly LFB, if you are going to do it - mean it. Note that you only need to LFB if something is going wrong, it is not an every turn action.

One around the turn make sure you use all the power the car makes till it is time to brake again, do not lift for any reason* until you are braking for the next turn. There is no coasting in rally only going, stopping and turning.

*(to be really fast you need to try and not overwhelm the tires, this is where smoothness comes into play. There is a need to roll on the power or brakes and to slowly dial in steering to prevent sudden changes at the wheels. The wheels need to get grip before mashing down the power in high powered cars. This is the advanced side of all the above)

AHA!
There you have it!
See I look way back when the Swedes and Finns in Saab ring dingers and Minis, neither very strong motors were "inventing" LFBing and they pounded the brakes.
We look at Monsewer Ragnotti and he sure as hell didn't have polio leaving him weak in the legs, he FLOORS the gas and he pounds the brakes.

My major complaint against the dogmatic CHORUS of "Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake Left foot Brake "
is that people aren't even braking hard and then, from what I've seen---important that---I haven't seen EVERYBODY---is that MOST people just paw at the pedal a little---and mostly just overheat brakes without accomplishing useful weight shift which is the whole point.

I know there's a select few who whine "everything you know is outdated" and imply "things have changed" but as far as i know simple physics is still a valid concept in the real world, gravity still pulls us down, braking still shifts weight forward and loads and gives the front wheels grip, and lightens the rears--taking grip away.

Yah I wqas waiting for Derek to find this thread for his "if you lift you die" line.

To give credit where due, Dave Clark told me the lift and you will die instruction when I was starting out. I promptly proved him right when I spun off the road on stage two...

I should also point out you may use the left foot for the first braking event if you want, the car does not know if you are using the left foot or right foot. Some people like to not loose time moving their foot back and forth between the pedals. If I am in a section where I am not shifting (say a section of 3rd gear turns) I tend to do my braking with my left foot for this reason but revert to right foot braking when I am using the clutch.

Do not beat yourself up for not getting it right on every turn, I sure don't.

video: dailymotion:xdf2

Hopefully I dont beat myself up by not getting it right the first time...

To add to this discussion and the excellent advice Derek gave: When in doubt, gas it! If you do go off stay on the throttle, you might just make it back on the road. I know it's worked for me, even when I broke a driveshaft going off. If you mash the brakes when you go off you will almost certainly get stuck and quite possibly (or probably) roll over. Now the caveat to that is to use common sense on a case by case basis. Obviously if you are about to go over a cliff or hit a tree or something hitting the brakes might be more prudent than flooring it.

Years ago Alan Carter (google the name if you are not familiar with it) gave me some good advice along he lines of what Derek and JV have said above. "If you are going to hit the gas, HIT THE FUCKING GAS! If you are going to hit the brakes, HIT THE FUCKING BRAKES!" In other words, none of this coasting into turns or puttering down the straight at half throttle. We are racing, after all.

Thanks for the great advice.

I am one step closer to that FWD car today. Now alls I need is someone to buy my Outback.

Quote
BobOfTheFuture
Thanks for the great advice.

I am one step closer to that FWD car today. Now alls I need is someone to buy my Outback.

What car is it?
Generalities are nice, specifics are better.

Time to talk specifics.

Well, might as well put it up on the FS here one this site too...

http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?7,43980,43980#msg-43980

Quoted, so you ain gotta click:

1999 Subaru Outback Sport. 2.2 AWD 5 Speed. I had bought this car to turn into a stage car, but a good deal popped up and now I am looking to get back some of what I paid for it. Car has 17X,XXX miles. Runs strong, good clutch. Good heat/AC all electronics work. Has HID headlights, an Intake, Magnaflow exaust, RallyArmor mudflaps. Has DVD/CD player with flip out screen. Recently had full oil change (diffs/trans included) front 02 sensor changed last week, no CEL. Previous owner refreshed motor, has new timing belt and seals. Car is located in Bellmore, NY. Any questions contact me here, or preferably at rjrusso23 AT gmail DOT com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2010 08:16AM by BobOfTheFuture.

Quote
BobOfTheFuture
Well, might as well put it up on the FS here one this site too...

http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?7,43980,43980#msg-43980

Not the miserable car you're selling!!! What FWD car are you needing advice on driving it while your all calm, collected, transcendant and humming "aum"?

Yeah, whatcha getting?

I see you've drooled over a Focus rally build over there on Focaljet....