Flivverrally

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Muskrat

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$500 for 30 minutes of go fast time, it would be hard to get any skill set built up.

The way I see it, some stage time is better than no stage time. And right now I'm not getting any.

Don't feel bad Musky, we all get grumpy when we aren't getting any, especially this time of year.

Seriously though, the rally is one of those murphy things where if it can go wrong, it will, so when those who have experience say "nah, that won't work" they aren't giving you a hard time, they offering valuable advice.

That being said, it would be cool if it works. It actually sounds like the clubs from the old country (where ever that is) that have been described here. If you are really serious about getting into it and you have a tight budget, I think the best thing would be to team up with another like minded person, and build two of the exact same car.

Like Gene said, codriving is a whole different deal. I am pretty sure I couldn't do it at all, and don't want to try. My hat is off to those who can.

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Muskrat


All I'll say is this: There may be some questions (which believe me, I'm asking). There may be some hurdles to overcome for the organizers and for individual teams. But at the end of the day, they are trying to expand and promote the sport of Rally. What are you doing to do that?

Instead of picking holes in it, why do you offer constructive criticism. Why don't you take all these horrible things you see happening, make a list, and send them to the organizers saying, "Hey, did you think of this?" Find out more, instead of writing it off at face value.

Well Brian ( glad to meet you)

Since you will be competeing at conventional sanctioned events then yes you can "negotiate" a team effort. All you have to do is ask, same as the Flivverally people would have to do.

Yes I am involved in rally, yes I have money in the bank. Since you are new and obviously don't know the people on the forum I'll help out a bit. You ask what I do? Last year not too much, some organizing, some tech, some sponsoring. Previous 2 years I was the co-chair for the DooWop Rally. Last 6 or 7 years I was Chief Scrutineer for DooWops, Olympus, Idaho Rally, Wild West Rally and Pacific Rally Group. Ran pace and sweep. Crewed for ACP. I am the Western Tech Supervisor for Rally America and Western Chief Scrutineer for NASA Rallysport. Also event steward for Mt.Hood and Wild West. I support 2 independant rally teams quite a bit and help any others that need it. I've worked controls, worked corners, worked service, directed parking and jsut about every job imaginable. I've donated cash to local prize funds as well as Cody Cranes entry fee. I drove 12 hours one way to tech for Idaho Rally and wouldn't accept gas payment. In the 80's and 90's I did compete as a driver, rising to the 9th ranked driver in the US. During that time I also helped tech at events, sponsored several events, chaired several events and probably built around 50 roll cages for hundreds less than any of the other builders at that time. I also originated the NorthWest Rally Lite class in the early 90's. What the fuck have you done?

Any plan or idea is going to have negatives. Those have to be recognized, discussed and dealt with. To not do so is an immediate recipe for failure. Constuctive critisism is nothing more than politely poking holes in an idea, which I was doing. Not my job to make Flivverally work, but I would be doing you a dis-service by not pointing out the flaws which need to be considered. If the only way you can rally is by a flivverally concept then by all means do so, but with everyones eyes wide open.

OBTW..welcome to the forum and hopefully rally.

Hey before anybody gets butthurt or oaf-fended, I would like to remind us all of an interchange between Gene and i oh about 18-19 years ago when once he essentially asked "what the fuck was I (to the effect of) trying to make problems with all these questions?"
(subject was unimportant but relevant to then, 2 cars i was building for guys)

My Grrrrrrrr-ed back answer was "My asking questions IN ADVANCE about spending effort and money is my sorry ass attempt at SOLVING problems. Fuckavalot better to discuss shit now then when the poor bastard pulls up to fawkin scrutineering....Grrrrrrrr!"

(We used to Grrrrrrrr at each other 20+ years ago.
Now we take turns slapping our collective foreheads and at least me saying "OI!" a lot.)

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john vanlandingham
Hey before anybody gets butthurt or oaf-fended, I would like to remind us all of an interchange between Gene and i oh about 18-19 years ago when once he essentially asked "what the fuck was I (to the effect of) trying to make problems with all these questions?"
(subject was unimportant but relevant to then, 2 cars i was building for guys)

My Grrrrrrrr-ed back answer was "My asking questions IN ADVANCE about spending effort and money is my sorry ass attempt at SOLVING problems. Fuckavalot better to discuss shit now then when the poor bastard pulls up to fawkin scrutineering....Grrrrrrrr!"

(We used to Grrrrrrrr at each other 20+ years ago.
Now we take turns slapping our collective foreheads and at least me saying "OI!" a lot.)

And I have way more forehead to slap...OI!!

What's with all the emotional investment involved with the criticisms in this thread?

The PMS-y vibe is strange.

Sorry didn't mean to bring drama or come off as PMS-y.

Gene (Nice to meet you too, btw!), Ok I take it back, you've done a lot for Rally!

To try and get this thread back to being constructive, I re-read through this thread and made up a list of the general issues brought up here, and my opinion on them:

Team issues:

1) General team dynamic, logistic, and monetary issues, aka “you’ll ruin friendships” – That’s for each team to figure out. Yes there can be issues. Yes some will fail, but it’s a risk taken. I don’t see it as a reason not to try and run an event like this, and personally I don’t see it as a reason not to try and participate. To each their own on this one.

2) Limited to 4 people – 4 Driver’s only. As many non-driver crew as you want/need.

3) Some people don’t want to drive/co-drive – Flivverrally isn’t for them.

4) Some people don’t know a wrench from loli-pop – Flivverrally probably isn’t for them. If you just want to show up and drive, you do not understand the concept.

5) Missing “something” at checkpoints/service. – Comes down to preparedness. ANY rally team can have this happen.

Flivver concept issues:

6) Cost Savings:

a. Cost of Car + Equipment – split 4 ways
b. Cost of Licenses – For NASA $45 membership fee and $50 license for $90 per person
c. Entry Fee – I’m assuming here, but it’s per car right?, so split 4 ways.
d. Insurance certificates – clarify this for me. If this just regular auto insurance or something special? Seems to me 1 policy for liability only with 4 drivers will suffice. Split 4 ways it’ll be fairly cheap.
e. Getting to the event – split 4 ways.
f. Lodging – split 4 ways.

7) $200 Engine concerns – Very valid. What constitutes an “engine”. Can a rally feasibly be reliably run on a $200 “engine”? If not, it’s not worth showing up, like you said.

8) Other mechanical issues – Same as any other car, really. I'd probably try to have a spare for "big" stuff like trans, dif, suspension links, etc. This is really a preparedness issue.

9) Ergo issue for seats – I’m guessing slide rails aren’t rally legal , but it’d be fairly easy to have multiple positions to bolt the seat down to. That's a fairly quick change. That said, when and how will the "legs" be split up. Will the Flivver officials make sure there's ample time to do these sorts of changes.

10) Limited stage time – Some time is better than no time. It’s the trade-off for splitting the cost.

Anything I missed?

I'd like to use this to prepare myself for what to expect, and help figure out what the right questions to be asking the organizers are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2010 08:24AM by Muskrat.

I'm in the same boat as you Brian, but having already owned a rally car in the past makes me think Flvverrally is really not a good way to start this game (or get back in it).

First, I hate to be the one telling you that, but there is no way 8k can buy you a rally car and all the safety gears to get to the stage.

(note all prices are guestimates, I didn't check to find the best price)

Lets say you find a 5000$ car.

It will most likely need a little TLC to be good to go, so like you said, 1k$ more for repairs, maintenance, cage upgrade, etc. (we are at 6k)

Belts will probably be expired, about 500$ more (6.5k)

Hans, around 750 each, bam! 8k right there and you don't even have driving suits, tires, helmets, seats that are not 25 years old, etc.

I evaluated the really bare minimum at 10,000$ just to get the car on the trailer for the first event (not even getting there or paying entry fees).

Once all that $ is spent, you will still have to split the few 100$ of the entry fee, the gaz for the tow rig, tow rig and trailer rental, gaz for the rally car, rally tires. All that without even being sure that you get the chance to sit in the rally car for a few stages.

And what really kills the deal for me is that you have to find 3 other persons that want to believe in that and also that have the same expectations in term of which rally you want attend and how much you want to spend on the whole deal. I personally don't know 3 other persons with who I'd want to do that.

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Francois

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Francois
I'm in the same boat as you Brian, but having already owned a rally car in the past makes me think Flvverrally is really not a good way to start this game (or get back in it).

First, I hate to be the one telling you that, but there is no way 8k can buy you a rally car and all the safety gears to get to the stage.

(note all prices are guestimates, I didn't check to find the best price)

Lets say you find a 5000$ car.

It will most likely need a little TLC to be good to go, so like you said, 1k$ more for repairs, maintenance, cage upgrade, etc. (we are at 6k)

Belts will probably be expired, about 500$ more (6.5k)

Hans, around 750 each, bam! 8k right there and you don't even have driving suits, tires, helmets, seats that are not 25 years old, etc.

I evaluated the really bare minimum at 10,000$ just to get the car on the trailer for the first event (not even getting there or paying entry fees).

Once all that $ is spent, you will still have to split the few 100$ of the entry fee, the gaz for the tow rig, tow rig and trailer rental, gaz for the rally car, rally tires. All that without even being sure that you get the chance to sit in the rally car for a few stages.

And what really kills the deal for me is that you have to find 3 other persons that want to believe in that and also that have the same expectations in term of which rally you want attend and how much you want to spend on the whole deal. I personally don't know 3 other persons with who I'd want to do that.

Let's say you find a $200 car........begins with "ex" and is maybe a bit ratty.....

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john vanlandingham

Let's say you find a $200 car........begins with "ex" and is maybe a bit ratty.....

Then you would need cage, prep, wheels, a real good tune up, suspenders, etc. Still close to 10k at the end.

Oh and in my case I already have the Volvo. It will get built, just don't know when. I'm just trying to figure the most logical order. Like, do I want the suspension first so I can go to rallycross and practice on private ground or do I want the roll cage so I can go to a more legal testing facility... and then what? (btw, I decided suspension will be first since I found a lot of way to practice without the cage).

But like I said, the main concern in my case would be to share the car. Only one other person ever drove my previous rally car and I think he would be the only one allowed to drive my next one too. Thinking about it, I could probably team with him for that kind of rally class since I trust him even more than myself when it comes to driving. But then he would be worried that I would be the one to get back at service without any straight panels on the car! hehehe

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Francois

Ya JV, but a $200 XR is only superior to a $200 golf (or whatever). The whole car probably needs fixing, and the only way to really save alot of $$ is if you are a good enough welder/fabricator to build things like the cage good enough to work the first time (without having to rip it out and start again).
You're still in for at least 10 grand.
$200 XR
$2000 suspension
$1000 brakes
$500 seats used
$1000 hans
$1000 helmets/suits
$500 belts
$500 used tires
$500 skid plate and underbody protection, exhaust/double skinned
$2000 cage minimum

You'll probably also need some wiring, some fuel system. You'll probalby want (but don't absolutely need) to get rid of the rear drum brakes, and of course either weld or replace diff with supra. What about intercom and rally computer. Fire system or extinguishers. Dual fuel pumps. Better wheels. Intercooler and plumbing. Spares.

Obviously it's possible to do some of that stuff for less, but there are TONS of little parts, tools, and extras that I'm not listing. I'd have to say $7-8000 if you're a great fabricator and mechanic and plugged in to a local parts source. $10,000 minimum if you're just a mechanic but not expert fab guy. More if you're not capable of doing lots of your own wrenching.

Don't worry... I still say go XR or Volvo.. but if you want to hit the stage you probably need to plan the costs and then double them just to be realistic. Or plan on doubling the time it takes to complete while you look for killer deals on stuff!

I think a shared car is brilliant personally. But I think 4 people is too many. A shared car for two people is smart.
Trying to limit cost with things like claimer junk yard engines is just a bad idea with an endurance and costly sport like rally. It works for Lemons because it's so cheap. If the engine blows on first lap, you're out a little bit of cash, but you still hang out and have fun the rest of the race. If the engine blows on the first stage, you're out a ton of money and stuck sitting by the side of the road for hours. One time we didn't get back to the hotel until sunrise even though our driver wrecked at sunset. Getting lost in the Ozarks is no fun.

Brian,

Again if this is the only way you can rally then it's worth a try for you. I think we all agree on that, it's just not close to ideal and likely doomed for failure. Since you are in Kentucky and Flivverrally appears to be a California originated idea I'm not sure how that affects things. It might be something Anders will try to work with back there (he's being terribly quiet on this one btw..)

Human nature being what it is, relationships tends to get a little awkward the more people involved. We are in serious boating country here. Every now and then you'll see someone partnered up 2 or 3 deep in a large boat and frequently we see ads where one or two of them are trying to sell their interest. Finding 4 people with the same interests, same finances, similar abilities, same schedules, gilrfriends or wives that all get along is going to be impossible and then add in any additional crews (I did miss that earlier because I didn't bother reading the complete rules). Now lets just say after a very lucky search you do find this combination, can you find 2 combinations so you have some competiton?

I'm not sure how Marciniak and company are going to move this out of their backyard. Just say it was trying Idaho or DooWops up here. We already are ususally short of event staff (volunteers). We just canceled an event because of unsafe staff levels at Wild West. Are they intending of flying out to each event and packing the FR competitors to and from stage starts? We certainly don't have a means to do it from an organizers standpoint and I can't see us making a huge effort to "babysit" people over one entry (don't take babysit in a very negative way).

From years of seeing rally up close and personal I have seen a couple teams share duties as driver/co-driver fairly sucessfully, at least from a relationship standpoint. From a competitve standpoint not so much. Adding a few more bodies doesn't sound like an improvement but I could be wrong.

As Sean pointed out the drivetime during competition will be quite short If you look at the scores on most events you'll see total times of an hour or less most events. Other than all the fun you'll have hanging around us, that gives 15 minutes or less or driving time. Now that will vary with events and FR has said that. So someone may get 20 minutes and someone may bet 8 minutes. Add that in with the fact that sooner or later someone wil stuff that car like a TDay turkey, or something mechanical will let go and that is where a crew member or two writes off hudreds or thousands of dollars.

You CAN do this alone or with one partner. We have a young man (Quinn Morely) who built a car pretty much on his own financially. He did this while going to college, working part time and the help of friends. He built an old SAAB. It was a pile really, but he has stuck with it, driven to events hundreds of miles and made most events. Been a few hiccups and whatnot. I doubt that anyone out there has had more fun though. He should be an inspiration to all newbies.

However ...whatever works for you and gets you involved, irregardless of pitfalls, is ok.

A few sidenotes...
Adjustable seat rails are permissable, must have 2 per seat.
HNRs are shareable, so you need 2 per team.

Probably the cheapest route for you guys is to build a truck. Run stock suspension. If you can weld, you could probably build the whole thing for $3500 if you are frugal. Hell, run an automatic to take that variable out of the driving.

Bonus is now you have a RWD fun play thing.

I would recomend a Ranger with a 2.3. you could always throw on a turbo from A Merkur or Thunderbird in the future for more powers!

I say go for it, but expect to want your own car after .3 miles of the first stage.

BTW, I have right around $8,000 in my Merkur, from $300 car to on stage. And I think it is pretty competitive so that I can grow into it.

I would say cheapest would be to buy used... smartly. I sold my Eagle Talon for $6500. It had a brand new engine with forged bits, a custom 'short ratio' gearbox, fantastic cage and underbody protection, good seats, intercom, suspension, computer etc. NOT saying the Talon is a good choice, just saying that it wasn't a beat down car, and that many of the big ticket items were already there. Seems like you could find a 'good enough' golf or something that isn't dead for quite a bit less than that. There are many discussions on which is a better way to go (buy/build).

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Muskrat
when and how will the "legs" be split up.

This would be a big concern for me. Rallies aren't run on a track, and even though we repeat stages, there are a lot of events that have that "epic" stage that is only run once. Seems it would be a big point of contention on who gets the best stage. Or what happens with stage cancellations.

Each driver is only going to get 2, maybe 3 stages. I've run very few events that haven't had at least one stage transited by a portion of the field. When it's 1/8 of your drive, it's no fun. When it's 1/3 or 1/2 of your event...you've seriously eroded your fun factor to get your cost savings.

Then there's the issue of DNFs. Do you want to be the first guy who can't drive fully committed because he's got to bring the car in for 3 other drivers, or the last guy who can go full out, but has less of a chance to actually get any seat time.

I don't think car sharing is a bad idea, but if I were to do it I'd want to have each of us doing different events, not trying to split events 4 ways.