Flivverrally

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heymagic
It might be something Anders will try to work with back there (he's being terribly quiet on this one btw..)

BAhahahahaha!

I love it. Now I get in trouble when I don't say anything!

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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fliz


Then there's the issue of DNFs. Do you want to be the first guy who can't drive fully committed because he's got to bring the car in for 3 other drivers, or the last guy who can go full out, but has less of a chance to actually get any seat time.

I think this factor could lead people to actually finish more events. If you know that you HAVE to get the car back in one piece for this event or the finish for the team then you might drive with a little left on the table thus preserving the car and getting you more seat time in the process.

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Anders Green

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heymagic
It might be something Anders will try to work with back there (he's being terribly quiet on this one btw..)

BAhahahahaha!

I love it. Now I get in trouble when I don't say anything!

Anders

Ha,,ha,,made ya post

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Andrew_Frick

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fliz


Then there's the issue of DNFs. Do you want to be the first guy who can't drive fully committed because he's got to bring the car in for 3 other drivers, or the last guy who can go full out, but has less of a chance to actually get any seat time.

I think this factor could lead people to actually finish more events. If you know that you HAVE to get the car back in one piece for this event or the finish for the team then you might drive with a little left on the table thus preserving the car and getting you more seat time in the process.

This is very likely true but....is seat time at anything less than someones individual limits (or approaching them) valuable? That would probably put the effort on par with a fast TSD rally.

In this vein of thought I've run events sharing a car with my son. RallyXs and hillclimbs both. Hillclimbs were easy as I told the organizers to put the kid in the first run group. RallyX I had to pull a few strings to get all his runs together and mine later. I did this for the reason Andrew stated. I wanted to make sure the other guy (my kid) got to get his run in, and at speed. I didn't have to worry myself about taking it easy as if the car died on me I didn't care. I'm old and have had my fun in the heat of battle. That likely wouldn't work amoung "normal" shared drivers though.

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heymagic

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Andrew_Frick

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fliz


Then there's the issue of DNFs. Do you want to be the first guy who can't drive fully committed because he's got to bring the car in for 3 other drivers, or the last guy who can go full out, but has less of a chance to actually get any seat time.

I think this factor could lead people to actually finish more events. If you know that you HAVE to get the car back in one piece for this event or the finish for the team then you might drive with a little left on the table thus preserving the car and getting you more seat time in the process.

This is very likely true but....is seat time at anything less than someones individual limits (or approaching them) valuable? That would probably put the effort on par with a fast TSD rally.

In this vein of thought I've run events sharing a car with my son. RallyXs and hillclimbs both. Hillclimbs were easy as I told the organizers to put the kid in the first run group. RallyX I had to pull a few strings to get all his runs together and mine later. I did this for the reason Andrew stated. I wanted to make sure the other guy (my kid) got to get his run in, and at speed. I didn't have to worry myself about taking it easy as if the car died on me I didn't care. I'm old and have had my fun in the heat of battle. That likely wouldn't work amoung "normal" shared drivers though.

I agree that it will ultimately not make them the next Seb or Jani Matti but for someone that has very little rally exposure this could be very valuable. Learning things like what it means when the notes say R6 or L1 ,how to read/interpret them at speed, when those calls should be made in relation to the cars position on the road, how to get through a start and finish control, etc. These are all skills that the rally novice, which is where I think this class is aimed, are better learned at something less than 100% commitment by the driver. So when one of the people in the car has a mental lock up the driver can correct and save the car rather than having an off.

Once they have some time in the car and are convinced they like it they will be more likely to spend the cash to build or buy their own car. It is a lot easier to justify spending money on something you know you like rather than something you think you will like.

The other feature I think could be useful here is the forced team roles by this class. Someone might think you are gods gift to rally driving based their deep xbox knowledge or mad PS3 skillz, but when they are forced to co-drive they may find that they enjoy that side of the car better.

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Andrew_Frick

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heymagic

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Andrew_Frick

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fliz


Then there's the issue of DNFs. Do you want to be the first guy who can't drive fully committed because he's got to bring the car in for 3 other drivers, or the last guy who can go full out, but has less of a chance to actually get any seat time.

I think this factor could lead people to actually finish more events. If you know that you HAVE to get the car back in one piece for this event or the finish for the team then you might drive with a little left on the table thus preserving the car and getting you more seat time in the process.

This is very likely true but....is seat time at anything less than someones individual limits (or approaching them) valuable? That would probably put the effort on par with a fast TSD rally.

In this vein of thought I've run events sharing a car with my son. RallyXs and hillclimbs both. Hillclimbs were easy as I told the organizers to put the kid in the first run group. RallyX I had to pull a few strings to get all his runs together and mine later. I did this for the reason Andrew stated. I wanted to make sure the other guy (my kid) got to get his run in, and at speed. I didn't have to worry myself about taking it easy as if the car died on me I didn't care. I'm old and have had my fun in the heat of battle. That likely wouldn't work amoung "normal" shared drivers though.

I agree that it will ultimately not make them the next Seb or Jani Matti but for someone that has very little rally exposure this could be very valuable. Learning things like what it means when the notes say R6 or L1 ,how to read/interpret them at speed, when those calls should be made in relation to the cars position on the road, how to get through a start and finish control, etc. These are all skills that the rally novice, which is where I think this class is aimed, are better learned at something less than 100% commitment by the driver. So when one of the people in the car has a mental lock up the driver can correct and save the car rather than having an off.

Once they have some time in the car and are convinced they like it they will be more likely to spend the cash to build or buy their own car. It is a lot easier to justify spending money on something you know you like rather than something you think you will like.

The other feature I think could be useful here is the forced team roles by this class. Someone might think you are gods gift to rally driving based their deep xbox knowledge or mad PS3 skillz, but when they are forced to co-drive they may find that they enjoy that side of the car better.

Funny you should mention that. My son can remember a road like no one I have ever met. If you reverse the road he will still be able to call most of it from the first opposite running. Most of that I believe is from remembering tracks on video games. He co-drove for me on his first rally (16)at DooWops in 04 or 05. I hadn't competed in 10 years or so, he never had. We ran the Brooklyn stage, first time , and he had some of it memorized from watching YouTube videos. We reversed the stage and he called nearly every corner perfectly (no notes), we spanked many of the current cars. He decided he wanted to be a driver and not co-drive . Well he isn't good at fast gravel it turns out, fast tarmac and he is spooky fast. Gravel very slow and cautious. Last year, after we sold all the cars, he said if I built another car he would co-drive..little shit.

Gene, you would be the perfect rental customer, as I know you would fix what you broke. There may be a few events that we are not entered in that I would consider this...

Just read through all this now, when I first saw the title, I just thought it was another Scandinavian rally video or something, ha!


To the newbie Brian...welcome to the forum and welcome to rally. And welcome to Rally Anarchy! where no idea is too dumb to get criticized and over analyzed by some of the oldest guys in the sport!

Seriously though, it seems like you've got some thick skin and you need it around here....no moderators to give people warnings or whatever. they even let you swear on here.

FUCK!

^See!?

Anyway, I have to *agree* with most of the points on why 'not' to do it. But I'm also the guy that went against the grain when I showed up online one day and said, "Hi, I have a subaru and want to get into rally, what do I do?"

I then received 101 reasons to NOT start out in an open class Subaru (reason #1: its that much easier to KILL yourself) but its what I wanted to do and i did it and I'm still alive (but not for lack of effort).

My point is...if its what you want to do, and you're dead set on it...go for it. But LISTEN to what's been said and be prepared for it, because maybe not ALL of it will happen, but a LOT of it WILL happen, and you'll never know in what order.


I am curious to the whole HDT in Cali vs. you are in Kentucky? Although, like Grant mentioned, you can share a care at any event already. I'm not sure '4 drivers/4 co-drivers' would work out, but again, small details.

Pick your events carefully though....HDT is fairly easy because its compact, but there are plenty of events where you go 4-6 long stages in a row in the middle of nowhere that would make it impossible to swap out a 3rd/4th driver after 2 guys drive/co-drive the first 2 stages.


MY suggestion, if you really get 4 GOOD guys that will REALLY SHARE all the responsibility evenly, is to team up 2x2 for a single event. That way, swapping driving/co-driving can be done at any time. The 2 guys IN the car take up most of the financial responsibility for that event and the other 2 guys just crew.

then you swap for the next event....the 2 guys that were servicing are now driver/co-driver.

There's still the pressure of HAVING to finish for the next event, so that should keep speeds down. Plus, there should definitely be a 'if you go off, whatever breaks, YOU pay for and you pay for it NOW or we BEAT it out of you' policy.

(but if an axle randomly brakes while accelerating out of a corner normally, that's a 'shared' maintenance expense)

In between events, wherever the car is being stored (again, I'm going to assume you're smart enough that you have, or will, figure out logistics like that) you have to be strict about scheduling when ALL FOUR of you will be working on the car to get it prepped for the next event.

I can say, I'd spend a lot less time prepping the car if I just had one day a week where I knew I'd have 3 other guys helping me out....wow, that'd be kind of nice actually.


Lastly...be prepared for the 'I told you so.' Cause it'll happen, and we'll have no problem ripping on you

Yeah! And where is this $4000 rallycar that you can buy all day long? Thats all we are really here for, gawking at cars...

What Jon just said makes the most sense so far. You don't need to enter a "Flivver" event, just form a team of like minded people, each put in $2500, and you can build a damn nice rally car.

Volvo 240. Merkur XR4Ti, Honda civic, Golf (If you must) ect.

Basic cost breakdown:
car $300
refresh engine, axles, belts hoses cooling system $1,000
2 seats, 2 new harnesses, seat rails $1200-1300 (Charles at Safe Drives WILL hook you up)
Suspension $2000
Brakes $0-$1000
MIsc crap like skid plate, underbody, various bushings/hardware$1000
Cage Built $2500 U-Build $1200 or so

You get the idea

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To the newbie Brian...welcome to the forum and welcome to rally. And welcome to Rally Anarchy! where no idea is too dumb to get criticized and over analyzed by some of the oldest guys in the sport!

Seriously though, it seems like you've got some thick skin and you need it around here....no moderators to give people warnings or whatever. they even let you swear on here.

Thanks. I've dished it out and seen it done enough times on a couple other forums to be able to take it.

As far as not driving 100% balls-to-the-wall: Yeah, I definitely think that's a good idea for this. Like I've said, some stage time is better than no stage time, and there are many other aspects to Rally besides the actual driving that you can get experience with.

I've spectated a couple Rally's and intend to start volunteering at some of the more local ones this year, starting with SnoDrift.

As for the KY to CA thing. Yeah, it's on my list of concerns. I wouldn't mind making the trip once, maybe twice, but I'll need to know what future plans are for this. If they don't see it expanding beyond Cali/Arizona/Nevada for a few years I'll have to sit it out.

The event splitting is a good idea, and it's something that can be done to get to non-flivver events too.

Well this is a pleasant surprise. Welcome to the Anarchy, Brian.

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Brian Driggs | KG7KCA | PHX, AZ | 89 Pajero
alterius non sit qui suus esse potest

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Muskrat

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To the newbie Brian...welcome to the forum and welcome to rally. And welcome to Rally Anarchy! where no idea is too dumb to get criticized and over analyzed by some of the oldest guys in the sport!

Seriously though, it seems like you've got some thick skin and you need it around here....no moderators to give people warnings or whatever. they even let you swear on here.

Thanks. I've dished it out and seen it done enough times on a couple other forums to be able to take it.

As far as not driving 100% balls-to-the-wall: Yeah, I definitely think that's a good idea for this. Like I've said, some stage time is better than no stage time, and there are many other aspects to Rally besides the actual driving that you can get experience with.

I've spectated a couple Rally's and intend to start volunteering at some of the more local ones this year, starting with SnoDrift.

As for the KY to CA thing. Yeah, it's on my list of concerns. I wouldn't mind making the trip once, maybe twice, but I'll need to know what future plans are for this. If they don't see it expanding beyond Cali/Arizona/Nevada for a few years I'll have to sit it out.

The event splitting is a good idea, and it's something that can be done to get to non-flivver events too.

Hey Brian, let me see if I can find the number for a guy right there in Lexington who has gotten suspension from me what was wanting to build up a Xartty...

Holy shit! A new guy, new idea thread on a car forum that didn't devolve into utter chaos! Hi Brian, I'm glad your'e still here and acting sane. You said you lurked for a while so I'm sure you have realized what a wealth of knowledge these rad old dudes are Gene and John have both been great help in my quest to hit the stages, and I'm nearly there.

To me the Flivverrally seems like a neat idea, a cheap way to hit the stages with friends and have some fun. We kicked around sharing a car, but I think I would end up spending more in the end if I were to go down the shared car path. I'm the type of guy that is going to push, and so was my friend. We met in college doing downhill bikes, snowboarding, competing in both etc etc. I ended up with life-flight bills trying to board harder and he has a collection of titanium elbow screws and shit from DH bike fun. I'd have this damn car done if I hadn't raced him down the craziest fucking DH trail ever at Whistler (Ride don't Slide) ruining my back and dealing with surgery. Put us in a caged rally machine up against a bunch of other people and a shared car between the two of us would last 20 minutes.

So instead of us balling one up and and then starting again on my own, I'm doing it myself first. Doug Heredos and his friend Dan(also rad dudes ) co-drive and co-co-drive a preeeety sweet subaru after working the kinks out (I'm assuming) on a rx7 they shared too. He could probably offer some tips for making that arrangement work.

I could never make a 4 man race car co-op go the distance.

---

Brap Brap.

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phlat65
What Jon just said makes the most sense so far. You don't need to enter a "Flivver" event, just form a team of like minded people, each put in $2500, and you can build a damn nice rally car.

We have a team of four competitor/investors. We are all very good friends. We have one current turnkey BMW rally car ready to go at any time, and have two caged shells, one of which will be built up next so that we maintain a two turnkey car stable, with folks ready to drive or co-drive at any time. This is also what we did with the Colts.

Having four folks available to work on a car at any given time is a great advantage in getting a car ready to rally. You can get a lot of work done that a single owner would have time issues with. Plus everybody brings in different skills - welding, fabrication, electrical, etc. It also somewhat lessens the investment needed, although not to a quarter of what you would be investing in your own effort. But that is a plus.

We all drive carefully in order to preserve our investment. But we also realize that trashing a car is a risk in rally, and we bear that risk equally. Much like an indvidual effort, if you aren't ready to deal with the economics of trashing a car, maybe rally isn't the sport for you.

My .02. Its worked for us.

Wilson