CARS Production class Brake rule change!

I haven't seen it posted anywhere yet and since it has big implications I thought I would post here cause I know there are a few CARS types here. The CARS board has just approved the following rule change to Production Class regulation II.H.k for 2011.

"The brake calipers, rotors and their system of attachment are free.
"The material of the linings is free. The master cylinder must be original equipment. If servo-assistance is standard, the servo device may be disconnected and removed. If an anti-lock braking system (ABS) is standard, the ABS device may be disconnected, but not removed.
Rerouting and upgrading of brake lines and hoses is permitted. Dust plates may be removed. If the anti-lock braking system (ABS) is disconnected, the use of a mechanical rear braking distributor (e.g. pressure limiting valve) is authorized."

Not sure what the 'big implications' will be??? *confused*

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

For all practical purposes the rule change allows STis (with electronic centre diffs) to be run in PGT and also allows EVOs to be run in PGT, something which couldn't be done before this without sourcing 16"
It also allows PGT cars to have adjustable brake bias in the car.
With less than two months (over holidays) to the first event of the season, some people may want to make their 'barely open' cars into PGT cars.

Ahhh. So it takes cars that were getting run over in open class, and moves them to PGT where they will run over everything else. *grin*

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

4 classes:
Talent
No Talent
Money
No Money

Prep rules could then be kept to a very minimum, mostly safety, except no whining can exceed 80db.

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Anders Green
Ahhh. So it takes cars that were getting run over in open class, and moves them to PGT where they will run over everything else. *grin*

Anders

Coilovers, alternate gears sets, add LSDs, stitch weld shells, re-flash ECUs, free brakes, what's wrong wioth calling the cars "production'.

It is a production to call them that.


I wonder when the charade will end?

If no current cars that are being produced can use a 15 inch wheel what is the point of having a production class, with out making the brakes free you might as well just change the name of the class to historic and call it a day

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john vanlandingham
It is a production to call them that.

I wonder when the charade will end?

Oh, never, most likely. I can accept that any spec created will, over time, inch closer and closer to full race, and then you'll need to add a new "production" underneath it.

Here's something somewhat interesting and related though: the entry list of cars for Sandblast is 100% "open class" and 85% 2WD. No cars are even trying to be "production". The Atlantic Rally Cup only scores AWD/2WD, although trophies are handed out for all the "normal" classes at each event. Since it's been a bajillion years since manufacture involvement in "Production" class (and here I'm making a connection that "Production" is generally 2wd, realizing that the original post was PGT related) perhaps that's the result.

http://www.nasarallysport.com/results/2011-Sandblast-Rally-registration-entry-list.htm

So to your point John, it looks like (and I hadn't thought about it till just now) that at least down here in the south, the charade ended and nobody even noticed!

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Production ought to be a class where the drive train remains stock. The rest of the car needs to be a race car or rally car. Or the class needs to be actual production, raced with the inherant strengths or weakness' the manufacture provided. No aftermarket equalization. Brand X makes more power than brand Y ...buy a brand X and shut up, or don't and shut up. This BS of sanctioning bodies trying to equalize machinery thru rulesets is silly, especially when the manufactures don't participate.

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Anders Green
Ahhh. So it takes cars that were getting run over in open class, and moves them to PGT where they will run over everything else. *grin*
Anders

Except that the cars this will move to PGT are generally already being beaten by well driven PGT cars. Don't forget that in this sport, particularly in North America, the driver makes far more of an impact on the finishing result than the car he's driving.
In my mind (much like Gene says below) it actually takes cars that should never have been in 'OPEN' class an brings them back to where they belong.

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john vanlandingham
Coilovers,

Reduce cost through reliability and improve safety through control and durability (provided you buy quality, well built and supported coilovers)

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alternate gears sets,

ONLY allowed if the cars were available with that gearset from the factory

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add LSDs,

Leveled the playing field for cars that were not offered with LSD, widening the field of cars available to the competitor.

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stitch weld shells,

Making them last longer in an environment they were not designed to operating in, increasing durability and lowering ownership costs.

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re-flash ECUs,

ECUs are virtually impossible for a grass roots sanctioning body to police or enforce. Why have rules you can't enforce? The inlet restrictor does a MUCH more effective job of limiting available power than an unenforcable ECU rule would.

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free brakes

Considering there are virtually no cars available today that can take a 15" wheel over their front brakes and that rally tires in just about any size other than 15" or 14" are made from unobtanium (and 14" is getting hard enough to find), free brakes is simply a necessity if we don't want to effectively ban new car builds that are anything but full on Open Class.

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what's wrong with calling the cars "production'.

Nothing. The minute you change the seats and add a cage you've started down the slippery slope.

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I wonder when the charade will end?

To me, at least, calling a stock engine and transmission in a prepared shell 'production' is much less a charade than calling a completely stock vehicle with a roll cage and seats a 'rally car'.

Yeah, yeah, same rationalisations as forever---we've heard them all for 25 years.

Blah blah.


The class is misguided, and even the long term proponents admit lying and cheating and doing most of those things before they were permitted with the ultimate cheaters rationalisation "We were all doing it".

Whatever can be gained from having these classes where a slimey cheater could and did protest somebody for the wrong year plastic trim piece around the gearshift---what a waste of time---and coming from such a cheater herself---insane.

How many P classes should we have?

Should an alternate turbo to the stock one be allowed, one that makes same boost but at a lower shaft speed so as to "increasing durability and lowering ownership costs. "?

I've said it before...make production cars (hell, I'd vote for everything in the rally with the exception of diesel/ethanol/alternative fuel vehicles) pull up to the local 7-11 and fill up with whatever "premium" fuel they have. That'll end the monkeying with ECUs and race gas, and (probably) eliminate the need for restrictors in the class.

Ok, Back to this stupid change


Upon reflection, this could allow some cars that presently not running to run. There are new cars whose brakes are just too big to get smaller brakes and compete. possibly stuff like Civic SI or some such. You may have cars with larger motors than their base line brethern now competing. This rule changes the cars eligible for P class rather than the equipment. Further more what am I supposed to do about them? I can't have Canadian STi and Evos coming down here and running all over my regional PGT WRX cars and the like. Sure be easier if you guys adopted our SP class maybe....

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heymagic
upon reflection, this could allow some cars that presently not running to run.

Yup ...

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heymagic
Further more what am I supposed to do about them? I can't have Canadian STi and Evos coming down here and running all over my regional PGT WRX cars and the like. Sure be easier if you guys adopted our SP class maybe....

I would expect you to look at the cars and how they are put together and class them accordingly. In other words, a Canadian PGT car that is still PGT legal in RA would run as PGT. A Canadian PGT car that has a brake change would run in SP. (and still kick your collective asses around the block ;-))