john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
For years the chorus of people repeating to innocents who foolishly think they want to fawk with trucks "Oh yeah get a truck! Trucks are STRONG" has made me do forehead slaps in full force because i know that ladder construction C channel shit full of hols are pure shit, lets just be frank: SHIT.
But it's like some genetic thing, some poor sap says "Terucks?" and knee jerk like--it has to be, it cannot be the result of looking or thinking---some people say "They built strong!!" Well guess what? They weak ass shit flexy garbage. Got that? Here's a link to some "Injur-near" at Ford comparing torsional twist of the NEW Ford whatever crap to some new full size Toiletta thing. About 4m10s or so they support the frame in 3 points pull out a 4 support and the "built strong " frame on the NEW Ford chassi droops 0.290---5/16" damn near from just the weight of the chassi. The Toiletta drooped--from the weight of the frame alone---1.3 inches Here's the link: Note: these are CURRENT, NEW FULL SIZED junk Not econo-shit junk mini-truck shit from 15-20 years ago... They're leagues worse---so there. (neener neener) OPEN YOUR EYES FOLKS. (how could anybody really imagine that there's any strength in 2 channel shaped beams, long horisontal beams , full of holes only linked with a few open channel cross pieces riveted here and there? I'm gonna go finish the video and drink more tea, I'm sure it gets worse as the actually put some loads into the shit structures. Edit: It only gets better! They load one corner with a massive huge 275lbs weight and the Fraud moves .859", the Toiletta deflects 3.232" From a 275lb load...OOOoooooooooooooh where woul we ever see a Two Hundred and Seventy Five pound load? This is absolutely hilarious.... Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2010 11:27AM by john vanlandingham. |
alkun Albert Kun Super Moderator Location: SF Ca. Join Date: 01/07/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,732 Rally Car: volvo 242 |
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Mark Mark Malsom Professional Moderator Location: Denver, CO Join Date: 02/06/2006 Posts: 153 Rally Car: Subaru Impreza |
i'm going to say that the deflection of the ford wasn't that bad given the force and the moment. also that its torsion and c-channels and the likes don't enjoy torsion.
of course i have nothing to compare it to in terms of other vehicles. i will reserve full judgment till i see data on the "old" trucks. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Super Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
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john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Junior Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
But Mark, that's the problem. I'm saying that it is obvious on the prima facia stuff in front of one's nose without waffling about "data'. Isn't it? Or maybe it's not obvious---but it should be. Beam height times length times force... a long skinny short stamping rivetted in a few places---isn't that obviously weaker than nearly anything except maybe lasagna? |
DaveK Dave Kern Godlike Moderator Location: Centennial Join Date: 07/11/2008 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 1,085 Rally Car: Compact M3 & Evo IX |
I remember one of the miata shops doing a test where they'd jack up one corner and see how high they would get the car before another wheel left the ground...but that was an econobox with no top.
The important thing with a truck is to keep in mind how well those cages triangulate the front and rear of the vehicle...err...ummmm....wait a sec. ![]() Dave |
bknblk2 Tony Wood Infallible Moderator Location: Wichita Join Date: 02/02/2009 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 181 Rally Car: 83 Citation "Oskar" |
At risk of being on the wrong side of JVL, might I protest that when beginners are talking low, low dollar, just get out on stage, rally prep, torsional stiffness in not what people are talking about when they bring up trucks? More likely it's the conventional wisdom that the "average" truck fill in the blank, be it its wheel bearings, tie rods, A arms or radiator is "bigger" than the "average" compact car....
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NoCoast Grant Hughes Super Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
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Morison Banned Junior Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
It would be interesting to see what the chassis flex of a Volvo 242/4 Xratty or Subaru Impreza would be in the same conditions. (adjusting for moment etc.) I do know that a caged/prepared car is WAY stiffer than a stock chasis.
In reality, without a reference point this info is relatively useless. |
alkun Albert Kun Super Moderator Location: SF Ca. Join Date: 01/07/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,732 Rally Car: volvo 242 |
Just 'cus you asked: volvo 240 is the stiffest, strongest, most masculine structure ever built by humans. You can swing a intact 240 at 500 rpm from a 50 foot cable attached to any single suspension point under the car with no ill effect. A volvo 240 can be dropped from an altitude of 45,000 feet onto solid granite and the doors will shut perfectly. If properly braced, a volvo 240 can support the weight of the Pyrimid of Giza.
There's some data for you. |
Morison Banned Junior Moderator Location: Calgary, AB Join Date: 03/27/2009 Age: Ancient Posts: 1,798 Rally Car: (ex)86 RX-7(built), (ex)2.5RS (bought) |
I'm well aware of the strength of the swedes - having owned a 145, 242, 245 and 745 and having sold them over a 4 year span in the mid 90s. I'm just saying that my recollection is that when you jack the car from the rear jacking point you can typically change the back tire without the front coming off the ground completely. Now, of course, suspension travel comes into play with that scenario, as does the fact that you are not jacking from the end-points of the frame. |
Anders Green Anders Green Professional Moderator Location: Raleigh, NC Join Date: 03/30/2006 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 1,478 Rally Car: Parked |
Well guess what else? It doesn't matter. ![]() How many guys you know ever limped out of a stage and retired on the transit because of chassis flex? And now... how many do you know that retired (or whatever) because of a broken A-arm, or drive shaft or half shaft? Anyone who thinks trucks are cool for rally because of the awesome chassis and handling, raise your hand. Nobody. Does anyone even pretend that they have good handling? It's because of the other strong stuff, the pieces that are more bendy on a regular car, that the appeal of trucks endure. I don't know that "they're strong!!!! AND competitive!" is anyone's refrain. But don't let me ruin a good rant. *grin* Keep going! ![]() Anders Grassroots rally. It's what I think about. |
NoCoast Grant Hughes Super Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
None yet, but I don't know many that are rallying trucks. At least one. I don't agree. I think it's just the deep rooted red neck in people that makes trucks appeal to them. The same reason why I find myself interested in and then finding an article from the Sheep and Goat Research Journal about using large dog breeds to protect livestock from wildlife and one Wyoming couple's tour of the world, mostly Europe and Asia where there are large wolf and bear populations living relatively in harmony with herds of livestock. The ones in Bulgaria, called the Karakachan, are especially intriguing as they will actually pre-emptively take on bears to protect their herd. The wolves will hang around and follow the herd, but almost never attack either the protecting dogs or the sheep. The bears the Karakachan will stage coordinated attacks on the bear, velociraptor style distracting it from the front and attacking it from the sides. In some countries the protecting dogs wear barbed collars so that if they do have a scuffle with wolves the wolves will injure themselves if they go for the necks of the dogs. Cool stuff! Way cooler than rally trucks and gymkhana to a Wyoming boy like me. The couple from Wyoming were inspired to look at what the rest of the world is doing after losing 8 Akbash or Pyrenees to wolves and got funding to investigate. |
nick leone Nick Leone Mod Moderator Location: Westminster CO, usa Join Date: 05/14/2007 Age: Fossilized Posts: 71 Rally Car: 1982 AMC SX/4 V8 |
Anyone who thinks trucks are cool for rally because of the awesome chassis and handling, raise your hand. Nobody. Does anyone even pretend that they have good handling?
Anders[/quote] Bill Holms and navigator Sean Gallager. Check out Special Stage and the Rally Truck thread. Nick Nick Leone Former scca member |
Pete Pete Remner Elite Moderator Location: Cleveland, Ohio Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 2,022 |
Somewhere, there is a photo of an early Ford (maybe even a T) navigating a ditch, front and rear axles at ridiculous angles to each other, and the frame twist accounds for more of the articulation than actual suspension travel. I thought the point of trucks was that they WERE flexible like that... is kind of why pickups have separate beds (Honda, once again, missed the point entirely with the Ridgeline) |