Happy Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr New Year to all youse wise guys. Interesting words from a Finn.

I saw this thing and thought it was interesting thoughts--especially since this fixation with peripheral things that cost time and money seem to be requirements for the majority of beginners ---which really is the LAST PLACE that anybody would think its needed.

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Originally Posted by Juha_Koo View Post
Well I wouldn't say that Finnish Championship is boring but the amount of N4 Mitsus and Subarus does feel sometimes kinda lame. There's only, I'd say, five to ten top guys in FRC classes (4wd and 2wd) who drive their car spectacularly and with real push as others are learning to drive recce-rallies and/or new powerful cars after a long period with less powered cars and/or RWD cars.

Also the fact that all FRC drivers have learned to drive blind without notes before starting to drive with notes brings all crashes/outs/etc mistakes to nearly zero. From a sporting perspective it's great, but as a spectator you'd like to see more action (e.g wide lines and small offs, not nescessarily huge rolls etc.)

As in F-Cup and other non-FRC rallies which are blind there's loads of action for everyone because there are dozens of competitors ready to fight for the victory or at least podium places. Trying hard with no notes = I guess you all know the end result. Although in the past few years many have started to critize the amount of heavy accidents and fast rolls because organisers tend to make rallies on roads which are too fast with modern-day equipped Group-F cars.

A special feature in Finnish rally culture is "the corner value" represented in form "X+Y", X being rolls and Y other offs. IIRC, my record is something like 5+7.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

So what's the deal really with this whining about recce and notes from all you slow SLOW beginners?

Are you all pussies?

Or is it what i think really drives the demand: you just want to play at what you've seen on TV--which means somebody yapping away and you can't process everything, but at least you can fool yourself when you put up your in car videos...

In other words: discuss--or just cuss.

Although I am not a fan of pre-made notes:

"Trying hard with no notes = I guess you all know the end result. Although in the past few years many have started to critize the amount of heavy accidents and fast rolls because organisers tend to make rallies on roads which are too fast with modern-day equipped Group-F cars."

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

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john vanlandingham
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=874668&postcount=41
So what's the deal really with this whining about recce and notes from all you slow SLOW beginners?
Are you all pussies?
Or is it what i think really drives the demand: you just want to play at what you've seen on TV--which means somebody yapping away and you can't process everything, but at least you can fool yourself when you put up your in car videos...
In other words: discuss--or just cuss.

Nice way to start the new year off with a text book version of a Troll post John!
- known controversial topic: check
- insulting comments about anyone who differs in opinion: check
- extremest opinion laid out as common knowledge/fact: check
- supporting 'fact' from an un-identified, unlinked source: check (Link to the thread added to the quote)
- starting a discussion that ALWAYS devolves into cyclical arguments: check

Pete Morris would be proud of you for this one John!

But... why not.

Western Canada has had pace notes at our regional events for six years now.
- before notes it was rare for novices to finish their first event now they almost always do
- in practice we have seen fewer offs in general and fewer car destroying offs
- the 'team' aspect in the car is enhanced
- pace notes add speed and safety (which my experience has shown to be worth ~1.5 sec/k) to just about any level of driver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2011 02:09PM by Morison.

The average low buck ralliest seems to run 3 events a year (polls on here as well as SS) and the declining number of events , they need to learn notes from the get go or it'd be years and years to gain the experience.

Also note the writer whining about the mean old organizers using only roads that are too fast....shame on them.

Only thing worth responding to the the ever obnoxious Morison is the stated as fact claim of 1.5 sek/km or 2.43 sec/mi.

Show us links to the double blind studies proving the claim, or retract all your insults.
Proof.

And why not discuss the opinion Morison?
Why argue.
Discuss the guys opinion,.

Oh! That's right, YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS SPORT!
Why discuss?
Why don't we start a thread to appoint Morison Leader of all North American rally for life?

Hey Morison, discuss the opinions of the other person and show us proof of your tired claims or drop dead.

I could counter with crashes of beginners driving on grass foothiills with no tree blocking views, sunny summer skies and driving straight off a sweeping turn obvious in front of his nose because "the co-driver called the note late. That's PROOF! that it's more dangerous!

I could counter, but that would be as stupid as your endlessly repeated dogmatic assertions--and that's all they are---that its the ONLY WAY.

And that is the subjet that you're too pig-headed to see, there are, and should be alternatives.

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john vanlandingham
Only thing worth responding to is the stated as fact claim of 1.5 sek/km or 2.43 sec/mi.

Yah - I was writing quickly and have since edited it to soften the statement.
My own experience, and the experience of others, on test days and on event have repeatedly shown this to be the gap. (test days comparing tulip to jemba to own notes, on event where stages are repeated and I've gotten hopelessly lost on one pass or the other (or significant portions.)

Anecdotal and not scientific but tough to argue with consistent reports from people actually doing the comparisons.

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Show us links to the double blind studies proving the claim, or retract all your insults.

I'd retract my insults if there were any to retract. (if you feel insulted perhaps you should grow a thicker skin)

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Why argue.

That's not an argument...
I was simply pointing out the typical Troll nature of you post. In retrospect I suppose you were trying to be cute and playful, buy for God's sake use some smileys when you're doing that because it just reads like you're a bitter old fuck who is stuck in time in the pre-quattro early '80s.

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Oh! That's right, YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS SPORT!

Hardly.
I do have fairly strong opinions that are based on my own [limited] experience and from talking with others. I don't have any fear of seeking opinions from people with more experience to round out my own thoughts but I have also seen the sport from a number of perspectives and seen it (briefly) on other continents. I am certainly open to suggestion and other ideas if they are well presented. Being actively involved for just a decade means that I don't have a foundation built on history... it also means my understanding and vision of the sport isn't clouded by optimistically recalled nostalgia.
Just because I don't swallow your load without questioning it doesn't mean I think I know it all.

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Why don't we start a thread to appoint Morison Leader of all North American rally for life?

Not at all what I am after. In fact I stepped down as the region representative to the CARS board because a good candidate was interested in taking the position on.
I won't complain without being prepared to step up and do the job the way I think it should be done, and that's what gets me into positions like that. It certainly doesn't come from 'political asspiratioins' or some messiah complex.

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Hey Morison, discuss the opinions of the other person and show us proof of your tired claims or drop dead.

See, a smiley changes it all.

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I could counter, but that would be as stupid as your endlessly repeated dogmatic assertions--and that's all they are---that its the ONLY WAY.

I don't even pretend to suggest that my way is the only way.
But, notes are the only way I will rally. I have almost no interest in driving or codriving a blind rally. "Everyone I talk to" has virtually no interest in running an event on tulips. "everyone I talk to" go as far as saying they'd rather not run Jemba and would rather spend the time on two pass recce.
At least I recognise that "everyone I talk to" tends to be like minded and "everyone I talk to" is far from being a comprehensive sampling.

BUT... to discuss the point being made.
Also the fact that all FRC drivers have learned to drive blind without notes before starting to drive with notes brings all crashes/outs/etc mistakes to nearly zero. From a sporting perspective it's great, but as a spectator you'd like to see more action (e.g wide lines and small offs, not nescessarily huge rolls etc.)
While I have no reason to doubt that all FRC drivers have learned to drive 'blind' I am not sure you can link it to the effectiveness of their notes.

All but one of my events as a driver has been on notes and all but two of those were on my own notes (1 jemba, 1 pat richard authored org. notes) so I might be a bit off about this ... but running blind I would think that you'd be watching the lines left by the cars ahead in combination with the road. and tree lines. Reading lines is important either on notes or tulips but I would expect the reliance on lines would be higher running blind.

I think you could argue that recce where you start with a blank sheet of paper actually builds and reinforces road reading skills in the absence of other drivers' lines.

This *could* be an interesting discussion.

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So what's the deal really with this whining about recce and notes from all you slow SLOW beginners? Are you all pussies?

I'm not following you here, who's complaining about what again? i haven't seen any threads about notes/no notes/recce/no recce recently, so I'm just trying to figure out your reference point.

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john vanlandingham


I could counter with crashes of beginners driving on grass foothiills with no tree blocking views, sunny summer skies and driving straight off a sweeping turn obvious in front of his nose because "the co-driver called the note late. That's PROOF! that it's more dangerous!

I'm onto you John....you're baiting me here, cause I know you're referencing my little 'off' last year at Desert Storm....but you're hiding behind your modifier of 'I COULD counter'....which means you're not, but you're still typing it and putting it out there, so you're making a point w/o making a point that you have to defend.


So, let me modify MY statement with if you DID counter with that argument, this is what I WOULD say....(if you did)....

My 'off' at Desert Storm last year was hardly a 'crash'. Certainly no fault of the notes....sure, I blamed it on the co-driver but really it was just over-driving by my part, which I was more than happy to do because of the lack of trees and obstacles (as you mentioned)....I lost part of my front bumper cover on that excursion, but that was it.

I did, however, take away quite a bit from that little error and I learned a lot about myself, the car, a little more about notes, and about my own ability to react in the face of 'being fucked cause we're going off an there's nothing I can do about it.

I don't know about other drivers, but I watch my in-car footage over and over and over again and learn from not only my obvious mistakes, but all the mistakes I made that weren't so obvious, and all the corners where I was successful but could have been quicker.


Also, for every one of those experiences that I've had, I could give you 3 or 4 where the notes gave me ample warning of a more serious 'caution' that could have been more detrimental and thus tragedy (be it personal injury or mechanical mayhem) was averted.



But I think you're right....nothing is ever wrong with discussion and while you're clearly set in your ways (nothing wrong with that), I'm still learning and figuring things out, and as a result, my opinion(s) on the subject are definitely in flux.


So I can tell you that as a beginner driver who has, to date, ONLY run events with recce and notes, that I fully support notes for beginners.

Sure, you can argue that with notes, people can drive too fast and get in trouble fast...but you can do that w/o notes as well. At the end of the day, its up to each driver to take responsibility for their speed, I don't care what driving aids you have or try to blame it on.


As far as the financial side....again, its all I've known, so its just 'what we have to do' to rally. I make it happen, that's that. If people choose not to recce...that's their choice. I have a job that still pays me when I take time off, so I don't have the issue of 'not working, not making money'....but that's just life, so I digress.

However, can people be competitive w/o notes/recce? Depends, but that's their choice. If they want to complain about the results afterward (or brag, depending on their results) then that's their right as well. but if someone comes after me personally, and say that I only beat them because I had notes and a fast car/crutch, well....they can say that....and then I'd tell them to go fuck themselves, I still beat them.

and if someone beats me in something other than a Subaru, w/o notes, and then comes up to me and gives me shit about really learning how to drive like a man, blah, blah, blah....then that's their choice as well. I really won't care but i will try to buy them a drink and learn a thing or two about going faster. Because that's the kind of person I am.


All that said, if an event were to come up and NOT have recce/notes, I'd have no problem with that either. Will other people who have been around longer and have run the event before and therefore know the roads better than most likely beat me due to their advantage? Probably. Will you ever hear me complain about something like that? Never. Cause that's the kind of person I am.

My 2nd rally ever, on Vancouver Island 1983, we had Odo issues. There was a road off to the right that wasn't marked well and had fresh tire tracks so we went right. The next 3 or 4 cars behind went right also. A few kliks later we figured out it was an incorrect turn and had to double back. Then we found several other cars coming at us as we went. All very exciting. We all made it safely and the stage was tossed. The rallymaster was quite put out over the whole thing. Poor marking, poor route book and shitty circumstances.

Olympus one year, 3 GTXs all totaled over the same blind crest with feet of each other. One major back injury that I remember. All 3 following tire tracks and treelines.

My worst off, near 100mph spin and crash thru trees, due to tracks, route book and co-driver error. Recce for sure would have advoided all the above I believe.

Shit happens, driving blind isn't always the best. Seems like we all watch the Finnish films where they show a dozen cars going off the same corner and many times filling an entire field with parked cars.

Recce isn't going away any time soon.

Yea Gene, but if you paid better attention to all the Fins going off you might notice they all failed to do the same thing ... I could go on about maybe your co-drivers were not doing their job regarding your off's and keeping you on course, but some events are poorly done ... Notes don't stop crashes !!!

With only three events a year being run do notes really do anything to improve ones driving, for that matter blind rallies too. Problems isnt notes or not, its lack of events that one can afford to run. With lack of seat time skill is poor and notes or not its an obstacle that isn't over come by type of rally but lack of ...

I would also argue that if as Mr. Morrison inserts that notes make the time quicker that maybe skills are lacking when a gotcha happens. I can see notes and blind events but only if there are enough events that are affordable, which IMHO there are not! Notes may make a novice team quicker, but also I would say slow down the learning curve on reading the road.

We've been through this before and each has an opinion that will most likely not change but cause heels to be dug in deeper.

What we need is practice with get togethers after wards to talk and debrief each other so we can all improve ...

At any rate I hope everyone has a better year then last and we are able to meet at events, say hello and introduce ourselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2011 12:53PM by SEANT.

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SEANT
... Notes don't stop crashes !!!

Agreed, notes don't stop crashes they only change the crashes that happen.
Recce, on the other hand, absolutely does stop crashes and, typically, eliminates teh natural 'gotchas' on a road.

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SEANT
With only three events a year being run... What we need is practice with get togethers after wards to talk and debrief each other so we can all improve

Fully agree.
Six years ago I held the first 'rally test day' in Calgary (or at least the first in a very long time according to those that had been around for decades) on a lovely piece of road about 45 minutes from downtown. I wanted a test day for myself to get seat time in a new car so I found out what it would take to do and made it happen. Since that first one I've put on probably 15 of Rally test days.

Since then we've regularly been putting on 3-4 of these events a year. ~$200/car for fully insured and sanctioned test days and we regularly have 8-10 cars, sometimes more. In once case, on the shortest test section we have, one driver put 100km of stage distance on in one day - about 50 passes of a 2km stage. Overall these events have given lots of rides to regular workers, some media, newbies and sponsors.

We normally run 6K loop that uses either 3 or 4 k as a stage, the other two are the transit around on roads we don't want to close. In a single day we rarely have people who haven't run as much as they want/can. In six years I can think of only one car that was damaged by a significant off, and only a couple of others who spent any significant time 'off road.'

The events are low key, see swapping of cars, co-drivers, notes and testing of car set-ups. Virtually priceless in terms of driver growth and probably better than Coef 1 rallies in terms of seat-time and the ability to learn and grow. We looked at a rallysprint series in Western Canada (short stages - 5km max, short overall length - 40km max, one car on a 'segment' at any given time) and the overwhelming impression was that test days were a better value.

Someone just needs to make them happen!

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Notes may make a novice team quicker, but also I would say slow down the learning curve on reading the road.

I'd agree if we are talking about notes without recce (jemba).
But two pass recce, where you have to write your own notes, makes you really really focus on the road and what it is doing and you get to read it at a slower pace but without the benefit of the tire tracks from preceding cars (at speed.)

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We've been through this before and each has an opinion that will most likely not change but cause heels to be dug in deeper.

Agreed, I had though this was talked to death but John wanted to be the troll that he is and do some immature name calling start another discussion about it.

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At any rate I hope everyone has a better year then last and we are able to meet at events, say hello and introduce ourselves.

Absolutely! All the best for the coming year to everyone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2011 03:37PM by Morison.

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Morison
Agreed, notes don't stop crashes they only change the crashes that happen.
Recce, on the other hand, absolutely does stop crashes and, typically, eliminates teh natural 'gotchas' on a road.

...with Recce, notes, or tulips people still crash.....just stop racing altogether, that's the best way to not crash.

Whatever happened to the adventure/danger? I don't need to see the road first and I don't need Ron Barker tulips at every event that I go to (although I do prefer them). Is it safer to run recce, sure to a certain extent...it is still racing and a couple of people will still come out and run as hard as they can and crash, its racing folks.

---

-Tom
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SEANT
Yea Gene, but if you paid better attention to all the Fins going off you might notice they all failed to do the same thing ... I could go on about maybe your co-drivers were not doing their job regarding your off's and keeping you on course, but some events are poorly done ... Notes don't stop crashes !!!

With only three events a year being run do notes really do anything to improve ones driving, for that matter blind rallies too. Problems isnt notes or not, its lack of events that one can afford to run. With lack of seat time skill is poor and notes or not its an obstacle that isn't over come by type of rally but lack of ...

I would also argue that if as Mr. Morrison inserts that notes make the time quicker that maybe skills are lacking when a gotcha happens. I can see notes and blind events but only if there are enough events that are affordable, which IMHO there are not! Notes may make a novice team quicker, but also I would say slow down the learning curve on reading the road.

We've been through this before and each has an opinion that will most likely not change but cause heels to be dug in deeper.

What we need is practice with get togethers after wards to talk and debrief each other so we can all improve ...

At any rate I hope everyone has a better year then last and we are able to meet at events, say hello and introduce ourselves.

I'd love to argue with you Sean, but you're very correct! Not having recce may cause a few more offs, or not. Recce may cause higher speeds for an off, or not. That is all arguable, and it really is just arguing. Lack of seat time and affordable events isn't really arguable in my opinion. RA is affordable for a C1 event, even with a low number of cars. We just need to find a suitable road that can be had. I'd guess a 4 or 5 mile loop would be ideal. Actually the Palix road would be good. Easy to staff and boat loads of fun. Might be doable in the summer.

Edit...further more, if I was to run an event tomorrow it would be on tulips. I don't think we can turn back the clock on notes and recce, I think it is here to stay. Be way cheaper if we could though. Nowadays out here with Sorenson and crew as advance cars I'd guess there are less chances of gotchas form poor route books, pure speculation on my behalf.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2011 07:39PM by heymagic.

Keith, what's your background? Have you owned a rallycar or have you mostly been a co-driver? Teh interwebs is pretty scanty on your history.

First event as a competitor was as a co-driver in the fall of 2001 and since then I've mostly co-driven.

I co-drove with a fast regional driver in 2002, on tulips. I didn't compete a lot in 2003 as I was traveling with Pat Richard taking pictures during his PWRC run. More often than not I shared a room with his co-driver.

But I built and drove a 2nd Gen RX-7, on tulips, in 2003 but sold it for what I had into it after one event.

I Bought a 2.5RS in February 2004 and drove it that year before selling in the fall and returning to co-driving. All but two of the events were two pass recce with the others being Jemba and Pat Richard prepared Organiser notes.

All of the events I've driven have been in Western Canada.
I've co-driven across Canada and Idaho(08), Sno-Drift(06), Oregon Trail(05,06,07,08) and Olympus (10.)

The majority of my rallying has been 2 pass recce with Norm LeBlanc from BC in a PGT WRX. We regularly finished on the podium at Canadian National events and normally finished well in the RA events we entered and didn't have problems in. We worked a lot on pace notes and got to the point of making very good and detailed notes.

Norm Retired in 2008 and since then I've co-driven for a number of drivers including ex BRC/PWRC/Chinese champion Martin Rowe at Tall Pines this year.

I also organize events and have volunteered in positions ranging from Clerk of the Course to Car 00/0 to scoring... etc.

I have also served the local (multi-discipline) club as rally director, then president, and then served as the regional representative to the CARS board of directors. I still sit on the CARS extended board as Marketing Manager.

Does that help?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2011 12:19AM by Morison.