John, either you really don't 'get it' or you're just being an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. Once again you are putting words in my mouth and suggesting I am saying things that I'm not.

I don't have any sort of 'hate' for the 2wd platform - quite the opposite. I've ALWAYS told people that well build 2wd cars can be competitive if the driver has skills. I've never said that Golfs or Volvos are unrealistic platforms - far from it.

The only thing I take issue with is your holding up the stage times from the back of the pack for the 'national' guys and compare them with snow clearing times of the front of the pack and grouse about how respectable they are. Instead, you could have spent some time and seen that the fastest of the 2wd national guys was a full 2 minutes behind the WRC stage winner ON SIMILAR ROAD CONDITIONS (IE second pass for the WRC cars) good for 27th overall.

The impressive thing, however is that they are just a touch over 5 sec/K off the winning pace for the stage and only about 2 sec/k off of Block. That's a pace that would have easily WON Sno-drift outright this year and would have given third or fourth overall fastest stage times behind L'estage and Higgens when they were still running. So... a well prepared 2wd car can probably podium overall all day long at a RallyCar national event if it is driven to its potential against the current crop of drivers. (unless, of course, the awd cars are being driven to their potential)

This also means that a well prepared 2wd car can potentially win the RC overall championship if the other couple of cars fall off the road regularly... if you don't mind winning championships without winning a single event.

The thing is, though, that you don't have to be deceptive about the stage times to show this and comparing the national times on a swept road to the WRC times on a fresh road is fundamentally deceptive. Comparisons to Block, at this event in particular, are also disingenuous as he is WAY behind the curve when it comes to winter events in general and even moreso running on WRC studs.
Suggesting that a well driven 2wd car is capable of beating Block in a WRC car is setting your customers up for major disappointment even though the car would be capable of podium finishes in the right hands.

Quote
Morison
John, either you really don't 'get it' or you're just being an assholeblah blah blah blah

Morison, you see the times for the really fast guys?
Block was not seeded in the first 5-6-10.

You don't think the really fast guys swept the road?
Come on stop blabbering endless words and think!

Don't you imagine the road might have gotten just a tad rutted for the later guys, and that those ruts might just make driving a smidgen harder?
How 'bout the position of the sun for the later guys? Low sun---by 13.30 its getting low---- can be disturbing..


What about the fact that the real action takes place---according to guys that actually are THERE---on the DM level, SM is too expensive and SM run with VM is crazy expensive---so only a select few guys enter---and not always the best or the fastest in the 2wd catagories

There's a million factors, but the fact remains---like I've said for years having SEEN how the cars go in person and following events and the times---and talking as equals with guys from clubbies to Champion level---in their own garages and homes---that their fastest 2wd guys are faster than anything we see here-----which should be motivating to guys here to shoot higher---and don't believe that ranting that you have to drive a new turbo 4wd car to do anything here...

And no Morison I nearly never see what your point is, neither the stated points or the implicit points.....must be a language problem.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Morison, you see the times for the really fast guys?
Block was not seeded in the first 5-6-10.
You don't think the really fast guys swept the road?

http://www.rallysweden.com/wp-content/uploads/StartList_Section1_docno5-1.pdf
The stage winner started 3 cars behind block who started 23rd on the road.

Quote
john vanlandingham
How 'bout the position of the sun for the later guys? Low sun---by 13.30 its getting low---- can be disturbing.

http://www.rallysweden.com/wp-content/uploads/Rally-Sweden-Rally-Guide-2-2011-Appendix-1-Itineraries.pdf
SS2, the one we're talking about in particular, started at sunrise with the 'national guys' starting about an hour after the first cars on the road. The sun wouldn't have been setting until the second pass of the stage, which the national guys didn't do.

Quote
john vanlandingham
What about the fact that the real action takes place---according to guys that actually are THERE---on the DM level, SM is too expensive and SM run with VM is crazy expensive---so only a select few guys enter---and not always the best or the fastest in the 2wd catagories

Well, you're the one who first held these guys up as a comparison.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And no Morison I nearly never see what your point is, neither the stated points or the implicit points.....must be a language problem.

My point is that the comparisons you made to show that 2wd cars can be as fast as WRC cars or that in a 2wd car you can be faster than block were based on a fundamentally flawed comparison that had zero validity.

Quote
Morison

Quote
john vanlandingham
Morison, you see the times for the really fast guys?
Block was not seeded in the first 5-6-10.
You don't think the really fast guys swept the road?

http://www.rallysweden.com/wp-content/uploads/StartList_Section1_docno5-1.pdf
The stage winner started 3 cars behind block who started 23rd on the road.

Quote
john vanlandingham
How 'bout the position of the sun for the later guys? Low sun---by 13.30 its getting low---- can be disturbing.

http://www.rallysweden.com/wp-content/uploads/Rally-Sweden-Rally-Guide-2-2011-Appendix-1-Itineraries.pdf
SS2, the one we're talking about in particular, started at sunrise with the 'national guys' starting about an hour after the first cars on the road. The sun wouldn't have been setting until the second pass of the stage, which the national guys didn't do.

Quote
john vanlandingham
What about the fact that the real action takes place---according to guys that actually are THERE---on the DM level, SM is too expensive and SM run with VM is crazy expensive---so only a select few guys enter---and not always the best or the fastest in the 2wd catagories

Well, you're the one who first held these guys up as a comparison.

Quote
john vanlandingham
And no Morison I nearly never see what your point is, neither the stated points or the implicit points.....must be a language problem.

My point is that the comparisons you made to show that 2wd cars can be as fast as WRC cars or that in a 2wd car you can be faster than block were based on a fundamentally flawed comparison that had zero validity.

The comparison you silly boy is not "against WRC cars" but "some of those guys"were consistently quicker than "ONE WRC guy" in a way more spophisticated and infinately more expensive car who has gone approximately as fast as anybody else in USA and Canada.

And it implies "if those guys" can do times like that in cars like they are in THEN guys here in nice 2-2,3 liter easy to drive turbo cars on our simpler, straighter, easier roads ought to be able to go approximately as fast as "those guys" in their normal aspirated Golves and Volvos.



Hard to discuss when you purposely only hear the words and intent you yourself put in another persons mouth. Either you don't understand or, as I suspect, you're just trying to prove that your an asshole ---oh! wait! where'd I hear that?
Whatever, everybody I talk to says they knew that anyway.

But good job derailing a nice thread, and ignoring polite requests to explain how we should encourage guys to build sensible cars that they can afford to run and be as competitive as they desire.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Either you don't understand or, as I suspect, you're just trying to prove that your an asshole ---oh! wait! where'd I hear that?
Whatever, everybody I talk to says they knew that anyway.

Perhaps because everybody you talk to parrots back the BS they know you want to hear for fear of being on the receiving end of our of your meaningless tirades.

Quote

But good job derailing a nice thread, and ignoring polite requests to explain how we should encourage guys to build sensible cars that they can afford to run and be as competitive as they desire.

Show me once where anyone made 'a polite request to explain how we should encourage guys to build sensible cars that they can afford to run and be as competitive as they desire.'
Regardless of that - the stupid thing about this argument is - as I have repeatedly said - we agreeon the fact that the best bang for the buck comes from running a simple, 2wd car that is well sorted and built on a platform that has a strong knowledgebase supporting it. I tell 'everyone I talk to' who is interested in getting started to start with a simple 2wd car.

The difference is that you are selling the idea that a 2wd car could be competitive against the awd cars at the top of the pack in North America. That simply isn't the case and even to be close to them that car would have to be driven by someone who has developed and honed their skills to a level beyond the drivers at the top of the pack. (IE it is the driver that is important not the car)

Quote
Morison
Of course comparing people with well developed cars that they have driven and developed in these very conditions to someone who only got their first drive on WRC studs this week and has only driven the new WRC car this week as well is also a bit loaded.

Oh, Keith. I'm pretty sure the World Rally Championship drivers are not supposed to be grade school children who need their hand held when the cross a street. If there are going to be excuses made for Block's performance, the first one should be from Block: "Excuse me, I'm not ready to race this weekend. I know other teams got ready and practiced a lot, but I didn't."

It's February. There's has been snow in Sweden for three months, longer if you go farther north. If he only got on WRC studs this week, well, his last rally was mid-November. His lack of practice on studs is not due to lack of time, studded tires, snowy roads. Even a similar car could be cobbled together. There has to have been a car that could have had a center diff locked and made ready to practice in the whole of Scandinavia.

If the rebuttal is "But he had to [go make some video with hot chicks / make some shoes / do donuts in a parking lot] and that's why he was busy." that means the excuse should be "Excuse me, I'm not ready to race this weekend. Rally is not top priority for me, and I had other things I wanted to do instead of practice for this rally."

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote
Anders Green
Oh, Keith. I'm pretty sure the World Rally Championship drivers are not supposed to be grade school children who need their hand held when the cross a street. If there are going to be excuses made for Block's performance, the first one should be from Block: "Excuse me, I'm not ready to race this weekend. I know other teams got ready and practiced a lot, but I didn't."

Anders, I wasn't holding hands or making excuses for anyone.

All I was saying was that if someone wants to compare stage times to make a point, make sure the comparisons are actually in comparable conditions. The data easily available shows that there is enough question about the road condition to not make the comparison valid.

You're bang on the money when you say that there was ample opportunity to test on WRC studs and I won't even start to guess why Ken did what he did in terms of testing or not. My point isn't, and never was, about Ken's pace or even the pace of the top WRC cars. It was always about John's comparison being flawed at its core.

You don't sell good ideas by lying about them. Hell, pointing to ss7 could have even allowed him to legitimately point to the 2wd cars being only 1.7 sec/k behind block's pace or 4.8 sec/k off the stage winner's pace. Either of those paces is enough to podium any given event in the RA championship and/or outright win a NASA or RNY event. So why point to flawed data and make promises of greatness that simply can't be met. (never mind the fact that he is comparing cars to drivers which is flawed at its core)

This thread makes me want to go to sleep. That's ok though, because I was actually rallying yesterday. Speaking from personal experience that is 24 hours old, I can tell you that fresh snow over ice will slow you down!

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Quote
Morison

Quote
Anders Green
Oh, Keith. I'm pretty sure the World Rally Championship drivers are not supposed to be grade school children who need their hand held when the cross a street. If there are going to be excuses made for Block's performance, the first one should be from Block: "Excuse me, I'm not ready to race this weekend. I know other teams got ready and practiced a lot, but I didn't."

Anders, I wasn't holding hands or making excuses for anyone.

All I was saying was that if someone wants to compare stage times to make a point, make sure the comparisons are actually in comparable conditions. The data easily available shows that there is enough question about the road condition to not make the comparison valid.

You're bang on the money when you say that there was ample opportunity to test on WRC studs and I won't even start to guess why Ken did what he did in terms of testing or not. My point isn't, and never was, about Ken's pace or even the pace of the top WRC cars. It was always about John's comparison being flawed at its core.

You don't sell good ideas by lying about them. Hell, pointing to ss7 could have even allowed him to legitimately point to the 2wd cars being only 1.7 sec/k behind block's pace or 4.8 sec/k off the stage winner's pace. Either of those paces is enough to podium any given event in the RA championship and/or outright win a NASA or RNY event. So why point to flawed data and make promises of greatness that simply can't be met. (never mind the fact that he is comparing cars to drivers which is flawed at its core)

Flawed data.
Morison you're a fucking putz.
You know what a putz is?
A putz.

This isn't a fucking court of law.
Its a little tickle for the boys but the great fat head Morison has to make it into some epic to prove I am a "liar'
Fuck you asshole.
Call me a liar?
Fuck you, you fuckin fuck.

Quote
Rallymech
This thread makes me want to go to sleep. That's ok though, because I was actually rallying yesterday. Speaking from personal experience that is 24 hours old, I can tell you that fresh snow over ice will slow you down!

Funny thing is that I was at a rally test day a week ago that had ~3-4 inches of snow over ice and saw first hand how the road cleaned up and how the conditions changed over a day of 7 cars and ~60 or so runs. (Admittedly not WRC cars on WRC studs, but there was still a lot of snow cover mid day compared to later in the day. )

h, really? Good for you, hope ya had fun.
I spent the weekend working so that Chris Caylor and another guy can have high quality suspension sop that they can go rallying.

And as i was slaving away o'ver hot suspension I recalled this little sonnet:

When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one Talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask. But Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait.

I think the new WRC cars sound better then last year's cars, like they might rev a bit, did restrictors go away?

As far as rule bound 2011 WRC cars vs a 'home build' 2wd car... who cares no one is going to buy a 2011 wrc car in the US or Canada to run. Under our rules AWD will always be faster when driven by same talent in same spec. In my opinion the only reason to press for 2wd for us normal people - it is a hell of a lot more fun to drive.

RE Ken's lack of practice - he, like all of us, has limited resources. It looks like he did OK and I am sure he had a hell of a good time.

Quote
derek
RE Ken's lack of practice - he, like all of us, has limited resources. It looks like he did OK and I am sure he had a hell of a good time.

He finished, so yeah, that's ok.

... And much much much cheaper to maintain. That in theory should free up some $$ to rally more, thus improving the driver skill part which is shown to overcome great deficits in horse power etc.

I watched about as much of the wrc event as I could this weekend and shit it appears they(fia) got it right with the new spec wrc. The lack of electronic center diff, manual shift, lighter overall car, an engine with less bottom end and more peaky zingzing really looked to have forced the drivers to work their asses off. Aggro driving is again rewarded, should be an interesting season.

I met P Solberg one time (about the time he was getting slower in the Subaru) and when I asked him how the cars are to drive, he said from a lauch they don't even get to control the car until the top of 3rd gear..all automatic.

Derek, I think they went down to 1600cc, and the restrictors are down 1mm to 33mm.