Building a local sustainable rally community is the only solution. Big national events/series might help bring series sponsors but without a group of local enthusiasts to enter the rallies and organize the rallies rally will fade.
How many rallyists do you know that focus more energy on Lemons racing than on stage rally. There's at least 5-6 former rallyists in the Denver region alone. One of them said, "this reminds me of the old days of rallying. Cheap and fun and just a bunch of like minded guys getting together to race cars and have a party afterward."

The costs have increased in rallying. There are two solutions. Higher income brackets or increase the number of entrants to spread costs.

Uh...I just did a LeMons race last weekend. It was lots of fun. It was better than Cats.

Even if the crank pulley exploded at hour seven and we had serious headcrash and had to send half the team an hour away to find another head and take it off and then come back and while the other half disassembled the one in the car and used a chisel and file to smooth out the divots in the pistons. Got back on the track at midnight and ran smoothly for the next ten hours.

The best part was when it started raining at 3am and we were just zipping by everyone.


Except that damn Dave Coleman. That stupid POS Miata is fast.

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aj_johnson
Rally Idaho should be fantastic.

Too bad its only a week after Mountain Trials in Merritt.
I'm CERTAIN you could get interest from Western Canada on a different date.

Two weeks before Pike's Peak and week of the GRC event in Denver is causing some Colorado rallyists to miss it. Then again, the CO rallyist is a dwindling creature and most are a bunch of whiny asses when it comes to towing. Why you would choose either of those local events over the best stage rally in the region is beyond me.

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BillyElliot
Technically, studs are legal in Michigan. It's just that they need to be MDOT approved, and none are if I remember.

The point Billy was that people connected to the Slow-drift event basically stonewalled, dodged, dissembled, and squirmed out of the HONEST answer: that they had never even bothered to inquire if, along with the other dispensations to township, county and state laws that are held in abeyance for the few hours of the event, if an additional one----studs--could be TRIED.

The remarkable---and blatantly obvious "party line' was repeated and repeated and repeated, but I knew it was merely a gang defending their 'turf". "It's illegal" was their big defense-----until I finally reminded them that driving 100 mph on a township road is also illegal.
The second line tossed out is a brainless platitude "Well it's all the same for everybody"
Answer; yeah its the same terror on the straights and crawling thru corners or a weekend thrown away from a simple patch of ice, in other words the same NOT THE FUN WE WANT for everybody.

Unfortunately, a lot of stuff is this way: any questioning in any manner of the status quo is met with public blandishments, and private animosity and PMs full of threats and profanity that makes anything you have ever seen here look tame.

And choice of roads might be one of those things since it is known that it would be more work to find more roads.....and nobody wants to work more.

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john vanlandingham
And choice of roads might be one of those things since it is known that it would be more work to find more roads.....and nobody wants to work more.

Or... just perhaps... using and keeping roads that already exist is becoming more and more work and the organising committees are becoming smaller and smaller and filled with people who have less and less volunteer time available.

I'm involved in two events that are 'actively' seeking new roads. it isn't an easy task and even when you find the roads, getting them is a whole other set of work to be done.

Right now, specifically, I have little patience or sympathy for people who sit on their asses and tell others how they should be organising events.

John - when was the last time you stepped up and held a role of responsibility on an organising committee? OK, I know things are different in the states... in Canada we have a club structure that shields organisers finacially and legally - but I'm still curious about the answer.

I approve of this this statement.

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Morison


Right now, specifically, I have little patience or sympathy for people who sit on their asses and tell others how they should be organising events.

Organizing a rally is kind of like throwing a party in your own apartment. You buy some beer, you order pizza. You put out a deck of cards and set up the X Box. Maybe you order a "pin the tail on the donkey" set and hang it on the wall and find something to use as a blindfold. You tell people when and where, and they show up. Maybe you put out a cup and stuff a few bucks into it... people know what to do. If they drink your beer or eat your pizza, they throw in a few bucks, too.

People have a good time, and when they leave, you clean up all the beer bottles and spilled chips, vaccuum, etc etc. Maybe some of your cooler friends stick around to help with that part.

It's a fun time and you get to hang out with your friends... you don't get much more out of it. And it's real work to get it all done.

Suppose during the party, a friend comes up privately and says "Hey man... thanks for doing all this... I really appreciate it. Are you going to do another one? I hope you do... If you do, do you think you could pick up some light beer, too? If you do, I'll throw in a couple extra bucks in the cup. Thanks, dude."

What would you do? Most likely, you'll expand your beer selection next time.

Suppose instead, the guy during the party stands up on your kitchen table with a regular beer in his hand and screams to everyone that "this party fucking sucks and this beer sucks and I wish I hadn't come here and you don't know how to throw a party and your mom dresses you funny, and I don't like playing pin the tail on the donkey" etc.

How would you respond? I'd say "tough shit, dude". You go throw a party in your own apartment.

Organizers don't get much out of doing this. They do it because it's fun. They do it to enjoy the company of their fellow rallyists. It doesn't take too many people complaining (or pretending to not complain while effectively complaining) to make them question why they are doing it. Most are thick skinned and it will be a while before they quit. But at some point, it all adds up and they will just quit.

As a sometimes organizer, I'm completely open to suggestions that come about in a nice way (and can even deal with intelligent questions posed in a fairly aggressive manner). I'm open to all about the factors involved in various decisions. Sometimes, things are out of our control. Sometimes they are in our control. Sometimes we haven't had time to think about those things. We may never have that time.

Every organizer knows what the "perfect stage road" looks like. Mike Nagle, road master for Oregon Trail scouted 5-6 new sections of road for this year. None happened and several involved lots of work before learning that they weren't going to happen. Like driving 3-4 hours round trip multiple times to meet with stakeholders or attend meetings. Or responding to long, unpleasant emails from other stakeholders. Sometimes, those same activities do result in new roads, so you need to pursue. Sometimes they don't. It's all a lot of work.

Even though some of the roads at OTR were less than ideal this year... when the event was over, I went to Mike Nagle and gave him a firm handshake and a sincere thank you.

That's probably about all he got out of the event. And he'll do it all again next year.

We need to say nice things in nice ways. Nice things in public and private. Less nice things (still in nice ways), only in private.

Doug



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2011 08:30PM by Doug Heredos.

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
And choice of roads might be one of those things since it is known that it would be more work to find more roads.....and nobody wants to work more.

Or... just perhaps... using and keeping roads that already exist is becoming more and more work and the organising committees are becoming smaller and smaller and filled with people who have less and less volunteer time available.

I'm involved in two events that are 'actively' seeking new roads. it isn't an easy task and even when you find the roads, getting them is a whole other set of work to be done.

Right now, specifically, I have little patience or sympathy for people who sit on their asses and tell others how they should be organising events.

John - when was the last time you stepped up and held a role of responsibility on an organising committee? OK, I know things are different in the states... in Canada we have a club structure that shields organisers finacially and legally - but I'm still curious about the answer.

Ok Morison, I was polite. Now you come with the world champion cock-sucker's taunt. "when was the last time...whaaaaaa! wha!"

Let me inform you of a fact of the world you clearly don't take into account:
We all do that which we're best at doing, if we're just a little smart.

You pay the rent comfortably being a photographer---presumably. (I really don't know, and really it's not important)

But you PLAY at fucking with cars. You IMAGINE you know thinks about cars but you are a mere amateur.
You by default have sat in some positions on local and national organising. maybe you're good at it, or who knows, maybe you're an abrasive prick---which is, as you have seen, how you come across to me.

the last time I did something on an event was when Gene McCollugh called with short notice and asked if i do the bike scrutineering at Doo Wops. I instantly answered yes.
Don't know 2 years ago? It was first try at bikes, and I recruited 20% of the bike field by myself after he called cause I know and am friends with a lot of people, so i called and said "They need entries, load that thang up!"

Once scrutineering was done----and I ended up cutting out numbers for several of the guys who has crappy, electrical tape nonsense on their numberplates---so I found contact paper or vinyl and scissors and cut out nice clear legible numbers to make scoring easier.
Then I looked up Gene, since he reached out and asked how thet were doing with radio crews--short as usual, so I voluteered Robert and i do sit in the cold and be radio guys.

More than happy to help out. But as we see there is "pre-exsisting" politics.

I am more than willing to devote hundreds of hours helping people with what I can best help them doing...
You have any clue how many people have received hours of help from me on driving, planning, simple mechanical procedures, "thinking about" their skills, teaching welding, specialty machining?

No you have no fucking idea.
-----Tom Buress was breaking CVs and hubs and junk until I called him and we talked about size weight and updating of later cars, and suggested he bring some later Mk whatever hubs to compare and see if they were beefier, which not unsurprisingly since the car is hundreds of pounds heavier they were thicker in the flange area where they routinely break. Problem was they are 5 bolt and he has a mountain of 4 bolt wheels..
Did YOU Kieth Morison weld up the holes and then pop in the new holes on the mill, then fight with the discs---then when he cal;led explain a simple way to turn the OD once the whole thing was assembled...
No

Did you think of the idea that later things should be looked and and checked?

Well Tom did pretty good at Olympus.....no thanks at all to you.

No and I have little patience or sympathy for people who sit on their asses and tell others how they should be organising their lives and where they should be volunteering their time.

Tall Pines a year or two ago had 25% of the finishers on JVAB suspension.
And every one of those, just like every one of the 100+ cars I've made suspension for was made after extensive discussions of "approach to the sport", costs, pitfalls, sources for parts at the most affordable place, what instruction may gain them---or not, the role of gearing in box and final drive. HOURS.

So they can get into the sport and stay in the sport.

We've done this same thing before Morison, you the casual "functioneer" dabbling in the sport for a few years and thinking you're some 'grosse macher" and sit on some ground to scold others who have spent over 40 years helping other.

And I'll keep this as polite as possible: Goody gumdrops for you.

But if you spend every day for the next 20 years wearing out your phones and your free time, you won't come halfway to the time I've spent trying to build this sport to be a sustainable more or less club based structure.
Hell I have a magazine article from 1976 where I was interviewed ----since at that point I had arguable more time overseas than anybody in US motocross ----and it became a critique and suggestions of what was needed in US moto-cross to develop a base----which could sustain the sport---not the commercial business, the sport.


What were you doing for the sport in 1976? What positions were you volunteering for? 1st Fucking grade hall monitor so you could feel important?

Now, I answered.
Post up your log working--working, not schmoozing on all the local cars up there? Who have you taught to weld, or pulled parts in a junk yard for? not a month ago I pulled a Toyota Supra diff AND--took three 60 mile round trips----a Volvo 16 V head for Sean Medcroft cause I had the TIME since i work for myself, and he works for a shop. You found and pulled a diff so some guy could have a LSD and a correct final drive for $32.75?

I repeat I have little patience or sympathy for people who sit on their asses and tell others how they should be organising their volunteer time, schmuck.

I give my time to those I like.

Seriously, why would I work for a buncha strangers who really only want a fawkin warm body? Or are, what seems, in your case, like political types?

I winced when I saw that statement. I don't think JVL is telling others how to organize an event or to find roads. It is sometimes a good thing to question the established way of doing things. We know the roads are a bit too fast and the cars are getting too fast also. Tires are way too grippy, suspension on the pointy end is too good and I fear the escalation that SRT is bringing with Higgins car (but damn it is fucking awesome!!).

So I think its ok to mention an events shortcomings, turning a blind eye doesn't accomplish anything. New ideas can be considered and shouldn't be dismissed without doing so. If we don't listen to the people at the periphery of our sport, competitors, workers, sponsors, crews and even vendors, then we end up where Wild West is... a cancelled SCCA national from not listening a few years ago to a totally cancelled NRS regional last year. There are people out there that can't see reality because they are blinded by the bright glow of their greatness.

We should be adult enough to face a bit of criticisim. We learn from our mistakes as well as our sucesses. JVL sometimes seems a bit negative but a simple ( just make sure your batteries are up) will show just the opposite. I'm probably more negative than he is these days to be honest with you.

Organizing in the PNW has been a chore. Lots of great, hard working people and a few turds. The turds have done a lot of damage. I was in a wrap-up meeting a few years ago when one of the turds proceded to chew ass on two other volunteers (over something that was none of his f'ing business to start with). One person left in a fit of rage and never returned, the other was reduced to tears but toughed it out. The Little Emperor just sat there and said nothing. Nice. Steve and I got rid of the trouble maker on our own at the next event. We're down to about 3 stage crews and 1/2 of those people refuse to work with the Little Emperor these days. PRG has pretty much disbanded, thankfully. There is no reason to be owned by a person and the NWR SCCA. We will rebuild and be stronger but it will take some time...and new voices and energy.

With Ray's passing much of my desire to be involved left. I question daily the continuation of my involvement. At this point is mostly because of the many friends in the sport that I hang around but its a constant internal struggle.

On a side note

ACP wins OTR

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slidewayswrx
On a side note

ACP wins OTR

No thanks to YOU!

hey what's happening next on the mighty 240?
It time for some econo rear set up?

While we can go 100mph on stages and break the rules. We still follow the laws on transits. So, unless we bring a whole set to swap over before the stage, we still can't use studs on public roads.

And I agree with Grant, regional stuff needs to take more of a push. I'm trying to get us Detroit guys to band together, show up to planned events (even if I don't really want to make specific ones).

And I'm glad ACP brought the win at OTR. Goes to show good driving in a ~160hp turbo car that's heavy (but has a real expensive suspension) can do well.

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BillyElliot
While we can go 100mph on stages and break the rules. We still follow the laws on transits. So, unless we bring a whole set to swap over before the stage, we still can't use studs on public roads.

And I agree with Grant, regional stuff needs to take more of a push. I'm trying to get us Detroit guys to band together, show up to planned events (even if I don't really want to make specific ones).

And I'm glad ACP brought the win at OTR. Goes to show good driving in a ~160hp turbo car that's heavy (but has a real expensive suspension) can do well.

It also shows that a guy who knows how to drive a powerful turbo 4wd car, might also know how to drive a TORQUEY 2wd turbo car.

And as for On the transits ...we are allowed to use non-DOT harnesses, and seats, and tires (gravel), inoperative by EPA standards cats, non-compliant sound, , heavily emissions compromised motors, etc etc etc cars

Everything we do is under temporary dispensations.

The POINT was:
the way the simple question was intentionally dodged, and there was a clear 'closing of the ranks" and defending things solely because the were being asked by somebody they imagine they didn't like.

My point for asking was the same as always: MORE FUN for the MAJORITY of US who pay our bills ourselves---and constitute the overwhelming number of the entries that allow events to run.
Studs lets us have more fun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2011 04:57PM by john vanlandingham.

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aj_johnson
Rally Idaho should be fantastic. Dick Rockrohr is heading things up, and from the few meetings I've been able to attend I wish I could have my car together in time. Get your cars out here! I may have a spare bedroom for any crashers. (gotta check with the wife) if interested shoot me a message.

anyway here is the site http://www.idahorally.com Come play on smooth roads in the sunshine.

message(s) shot

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john vanlandingham
Now, I answered.

But you didn't answer the question I asked which was 'when was the last time you stepped up and held a role of responsibility on an organising committee?'
Instead you pull up an example where you didn't help out a local event run by friends until you got a last minute call which equates to waiting for a personal invitation to help the event out.
As for all the hours you've given to the people you like... great. BUT... I have yet to meet anyone who is a part of the rally community who won't help others, often at a great deal of personal time and expense. That's one of the great things about the rally community.
And of course we each help in the ways we can... which for me means something other than mechanical or fab work because I am just shy of useless when it comes to turning wrenches. I've helped lots of people directly and indirectly in areas from co-driving to movement plans to organising to rules. I even help people I don't particularly like sometimes.

The thing is that we need competitors, builders and organsiers if we want the sport to continue. Ultimately, however, without organisers it's really really tough to compete.

Taking a role of responsibility can be as simple as saying 'yes, I'll arrange the service park' and then following through and making the service park happen.

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john vanlandingham
No and I have little patience or sympathy for people who sit on their asses and tell others how they should be organising their lives and where they should be volunteering their time.

But you'll gladly categorise organisers who don't get new roads as not wanting to work on getting new roads even when you haven't a clue how much work has been done on finding roads.
Most org committees I've seen are about a half to a third the size they should be. Very few will refuse help and experience has taught me the ones that do are because people who commit to do something bail at the last minute and the organiser is left picking up the pieces.