have you looked in to motorgeek.com, i have not been on in years but there is alot of good information on the b chassis audi. fret the small things that count. a dashboard is not one of them, body work you can and will learn. get it log booked.

Patrick,
The 4k windshield and roofline are different than the GT, not interchangable. I had a line on a new windshield in Cali and 12 mos later it still hadn't been found. That's why I had my collection...

There is surprising little room in those cars also. They chop the roof just enough to limit headroom a bit. Seems like only one company makes a limited slip and I can't remember if any gearing options are available. They actually drive pretty nice and the cars themselves are built pretty well.

Lots of info on the net, not much rally related tho. Most of the Golf theories will apply with the weight factor considered.

Somewhere I have a pic of my sons car being finished the nite before Olympus..ACP, his crew, Mike Hurst and JB Niday all working on the car at midnite in my shop. Here's a pic of it after Olympus, note one of the spare cars next to it....

He's got time.
He's got money.
He likes the car.

Dash? don't need it.

Paint? HA!

Windshields? Just duct tape the rear hatch to the A post as needed Keep goggles in car as plan B.




Cage it, logbook it, kill it and move onto something else... or build your version 2.0

For a site with anarchy in it's name, there sure is a a lot of My way is the only way, YOUR DOING IT WRONG!!! BOOO!!!

actually, I happen to know of a couple windshields local to me. Lemme know if you are interested.

Motorgeek is a wealth of information on these cars, matter of fact there is a project thread for a rallyx coupe gt over there.

I believe that you are pretty limited on aftermarket gearing, however the gearing that you have is not the worst in the world. Stasis should be able to get you a LSD, or at least point you in the right direction (personally, I'd grab a $50 spare trans and weld the diff) Also some of the trans rebuild parts are NLA.

I see coupe GT's for sale every couple of months for under $1100. And we are talking decent looking drivers, parts cars are cheaper. So I would maybe pick up a spare shell or two if you have space.

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GuinnessFox

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alkun
rallycars don't need dashboards. They often do need windshields though.

Point taken. One less thing to worry about now.

The Audi 4000 windshield fit the Coupe GT by any chance?

Thanks for all the help guys. Your accumulated guru knowledge has helped me a lot. I'm a newb to this field, so your insight has been very helpful. John especially!

I am still determined in my project at this point and time. I have regained confidence in it now that I know what parts I can hunt for (audi 4000 parts) and that I have a fighting chance to find body kits out there.

Will keep you updated with this project... minus the woes now.

Thanks for the kind words. I try.
Now I don't think I wrote very clearly what I meant when I said you---all of us collectively---should always weigh everything---car choice, choice of mods, order of mods etc----must ask "What advantage would this 'Nowigotcha ZPTGXS' have ?" I meant it as a comparison.
"What advantage does this Nowigotcha ZPTGXS ---made in exremely short run and now (cause it was not that exciting really) is exceedingly rare----versus a common, easy ____________________ as a stage rally car.

Now I have to admit: Anybody who came into the sport when I did (early 1980s) has to have a soft spot in the head (yeah yeah!) for Audi Quattros. or they're not human. Simple as that. They were--in factory rally trim---unlike anything we'd seen in our lives in terms of power, grip, and SOUND!
We saw them on TV and videos we all had, and we were lucky to see arguably the ONLY and best driver in North America to dare match himself against the whole world John Buffum on US Nationals---and we knew what we were watching really was GOOD, because we saw his top 5 WRC stage times and like wins at ERC Cyprus.

Now the dominant car which Audi in reality just displaced by slim margins was.....was.....................


Wait for it.....

was!!!!!


The greatest car in the history of human kind:


But as time went, and like a first love we began to examine the fascination we began to think about the the "WHY" the works Gp4 then GpB Quattros we able to beat the previously unconquerable Escorts.

It wasn't via handling, no way, ( the long inline engine 100% hanging way in front of the front axle centerline made for vile understeering) and it wasn't from light weight, and it wasn't horsepower; the last works Fords were 262 bhp, the Gp4 Quattros were about 265 bhp. It was from about 2 1/2 times the torque the turbo motor made---and that torque was what demanded the 4wd.

And then it hit us, that it took a works Quattro with all that power to beat a simple, well balanced, relatively light Escort.

Now shifting to our club level and comparing a Quattro turbo today with the restrictor rules, I say if a guy like AJ has a pile of parts and extra junk, sure, run a Quattro turbo, why not?

But look at the simple numbers:

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or the last model year, the new 2,309 cc "NG" five cylinder was available, offering 136 PS (100 kW) at 5,600 rpm. This engine became available during 1987 for the last of the Audi Coupés sold in the US, where it produced 130 hp (97 kW) at 5,700 rpm as opposed to the 110 hp (82 kW) at 5,500 rpm available from the 2.2-litre five which had been used since the facelift for model year 1985.[3] The Coupé had originally gone on sale in the US late in model year 1981 with the 100 hp (75 kW) 2,144 cc five-cylinder also used in the 5000 (Audi 100).[4]

.

That's lame.
look at the weight: Kerb weight 950–1,200 kg (2,094–2,646 lb)

And it still has the entire engine in front of spindle centerline, making for vile weight distribution, and what must be pig handling much like the old Quattros.

Modding the motor, simply more compression and lumpy cams and fuel infection mods is easy enough, just costs money. But there's nothing that you can do about the really poor weight balance and sheer weight of the car.
So, what ADVANTAGE does the car offer?

None. Not even the bizarre error in thinking that many throw out "uniqueness" because everything has been done before by somebody someplace.

Now you know what I think that 80% of the field should be in of course and that's the nearest thing to what nipped at those works Quattros heels as long as they rallied them especially on narrow, tricky roads, like this:
the nearest thing to a simple, well balanced Escort we can get, but scaled up for North American roads:
Volvo 240.
Cheap, strong, common enough to not commit suicide when you smack it hard, with motors with limitless potential.

A guy with a modest budget can build a 240 that can win overall if they can drive.

Compare the Escort and the 240:


Here's a real nice one:

Advantages compared to any other car:
The engine in that car is positioned such that cylinder no.2 is inline with the front spindle.
Near 50/50 weight balance.2.3 to 2.4 8v is easy. 230 n.a. bhp was common in club cars 20 years ago.
EASY upgrades in EVERY area that makes a rally car a rally car.
Stable at speed
Common in all the civilised parts of the country.
Proven effective both n.a. or turbo
moderate weight or very good weight for the power available

Only vice is ugly headlights on later cars.

That is what I mean ask "what advantage?"

Be reasonable, the point is to have competitive FUN, and everybody who drives a 240 or an Xratty half prepped says they are so much fun it's not even funny.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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bknblk2
For a site with anarchy in it's name, there sure is a lot of My way is the only way, YOUR DOING IT WRONG!!! BOOO!!!

I all fairness I think any of us will try and stop people from going down a path that is KNOWN to be filled with problems.

The windscreen issue is a good one. LOTS of time, money and effort goes into building a rally car and in the heat of the moment you take off down the stage without the hood pins in (happens LOTS). hood comes up, smashes the windscreen and bends the hood... can't find a replacement windscreen and the car is perfectly drivable otherwise but parked while you search for what can be considered a consumable item.

Pack mentality makes sense in many ways. I had a rear diff fail at an event and was able to borrow one from another competitor running the same kind of car. In fact I had a selection of diffs to choose from at the event. (Changing the diff in a 20 minute service proved to be more difficult)

Often cars aren't rallied or used in competition for good reasons.

Sometimes we will all try and stop people from heading down what could be the right path at the wrong time. Particularly these days we see a lot of 'flatbiller' types who want to dive into AWD open cars as their first competition car. Just abut everyone I know who has gone that route has regretted it and has had trouble staying in the sport as a driver.

I'm a good example of that. I built and ran a gen2 RX7 as my first rally car. After one event I was able to sell it to a newcomer to the sport and moved into a 2.5RS. I had some repspectable growth and seat-time the next year in that car but in the end I couldn't sustain an AWD program and - more importantly - it changed how I approached the events. More serious and less fun.

Many times I wished I had stayed in RWD...

'Rally Anarchy' isn't openly accepting of all ideas, nor should it be... the 'experienced' rally community at large will tend to be unaccepting of ill advised ideas as well.

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john vanlandingham
A guy with a modest budget can build a 240 that can win overall if they can drive.

Serious questions here John.

Can you define 'modest budget?'

Win what sort of event overall, if they can drive?
RA/RC National?
CARS National?
WCRC Regional?
USRC National?
RNY event?
PACNW Regional?
CRS Regional?

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
A guy with a modest budget can build a 240 that can win overall if they can drive.

Serious questions here John.

Can you define 'modest budget?'

Win what sort of event overall, if they can drive?
RA/RC National?
CARS National?
WCRC Regional?
USRC National?
RNY event?
PACNW Regional?
CRS Regional?

Sorry but I am not interested in discussing this with you.
Not interested in discussing anything with you.
You are a classic intrer-net troll, simple as that.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Well, since John won't, I will.

A decent RWD Merkur or Volvo could be built for 8-12K depending upon how much you can do yourself. This is a car that would be able to win any 2WD stage rally event in the world with a competent driver. It could likely win some US rally stages overall, again with the right driver.
Jardevall's 740 was from what I've heard a fairly low spec car in this price range.
Cody Crane's car is probably a 3-5K car and look what he does with it. Imagine if he had something with more torque, HP, suspension, and gearing.

John makes some very good points. I dont know what the east coast is like in regards to old audis in junkyards. but as a general rule, if you dont live in colorado or the PNW, older audis are a tad hard to come by.

Also remember that there is no rebuilding that transmission that I know of. The trans doesn't like particularly fast shifts either. It should hold up just fine powerwise, but it is 20 somthing years old and they don't particularly like redline oils. They are also not as plentiful as T5's

The sound is beastly, they understeer like pigs until you put a "hand of God" rear sway bar in and Alot of people complain that they are maintenance intensive (not me).

My suggestion is to give it a little TLC, some slightly stiffer springs, a rear sway bar and daily drive it for a few months or so. Plenty of fun as a driver, a well maintaned model will get you just shy of 30mpg and be lots of fun (as well as reliable).

In the meantime search for parts for that car, weigh the costs, look into the necessary upgrades, and keep an eye out for an xr4

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john vanlandingham
Sorry but I am not interested in discussing this with you.
Not interested in discussing anything with you.
You are a classic intrer-net troll, simple as that.

Wuss.
You make meaningless statements and claims that you can't stand behind and get out of it by calling me a 'troll' for questioning them?

Seriously: is a modest budget $8,000 cash plus several hundreds of hours of labour and shop equipment/supplies that aren't factored into the cost?

Well driven cars will always do better than moderately driven cars. You don't have to go too far back to see 2wd cars on the podium at WCRC regionals or, in the right conditions, on the podium of CARS Nationals. (Sprongl in the swift comes to mind)

BUT... the statement 'can win overall if they can drive' sure leads someone to think someone could take a volvo 240 and beat Higgens/L'estage/ect. That's simply not realistic unless the front of the pack dnfs. (Hey, I beat Tom McGeer on my first National event as a driver...)

Hey Patrick, a smrat dood is here beside me and he suggested since you have pick up bed loads of bundle 20s laying around, and are a man of leisure, why not a Frod Focus in rwd form?

William Timmins who I work with on some projects is all hot on making Fucci into hot rwd cars using the marvelous Duratec motor and the ubiquitous Borg Warner T5 gearbox.
Simple, expensive enough to make you feel good, and cheap to do the inevitable repairs.

Whaddya think?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Ha ha, the windshield issue. I only wish windshields for my Opel were as plentiful here as Audi Coupe GT windshields. At least there are some out there. I was lucky that when I did roll it I didn't break the windshield. No other Opel Ascona B windshields on the entire continent!

sweet daily driver! To make it to what we would think of as a all around bitchin
rally car would take a ton of effort and way more money than 90% of the cars
rallying now.

Hi I'm William TSSFAB.US

I got a call from jvl and Rallymeck to check out this thread, and maybe talk about
what I have going on with focus's and how someone like you would be the perfect
candidate for a RWD converted focus.

hear is the thread on RA that i started a wile back if you haven't read threw it.

We are always talking about cost power gearing and limited slips, all which will
be very hard or expensive in the GT.

Lots of cost are around the same for any car cage suspension seats ect. So when it
comes to the idea of a focus we all know replacement panels windows and any oem
part are virtually free. For the focus it will take two custom frames to use the stock motor
in RWD form.

for the focus hear are some numbers and parts that would get you to a near perfect
formula

car a 05 + fucus for 3000 to 5000
trans T5 with close ratio gear kit $2000 2.42, 1.53, 1.23, 1.00, .90
rear diff with new gears and oem supra limited slip under $400
the motor would be just cams intake and tune for starts but motor
work just go up the crazyer you want to get. but under $1200 for 170 - 190
there is so much more.

I am looking for a first focus customer to do rwd and I can build anything needed
and can make deals if you are interested in a full on RWD gp2 focus.

Sorry about not being quick with the reply~ Someone snagged my smartphone from work today and I am not a happy guy.

ANYWHO...


William, you may have made me the happiest kid on the earth. I had thought about the Focus, but wasn't sure on reliability and such. Somewhere around $5k to buy a vehicle and I am looking at around $5-10k in upgrades. It is in my ballpark. I am VERY impressed with the new Fiesta on that note! I don't like the name so much, but it looks beastly on the gravel.

I just looked up parts for the focus and... I am beside myself with how plentiful and cheap parts are.

OK guys, new plan... for 22394823984327th time.

- Audi will STAY as a fun car. Probably make it look mean, but keep it stock under the hood for a driver.

-Ford Focus is looking... VERY promising. I mean... http://www.thefordsource.com/store/motorsports/focus.htm Look at that. Body kits, rims, springs.. you name it.

And for the record John, I am not LOADED. I have 8k set aside RIGHT NOW for a project which I understand is... MORE than enough. I will have around $10k by the end of the year and possibly $15k by next spring. But a good vehicle would be a good start. The Audi ran $100... so it'll be a garage baby for now. On that note, I posted on several other sites and people told me to restore it, not rally it. "It would be worth your time to keep it stock, repaint it and keep it on the asphalt where it belongs."

A RWD Focus though? Seems like a lot of work to convert it to that. Would you recommend a Zx3? SVT? or what trim/year/etc would be ideal? There are tons of 5 speeds available in my state right now. I just don't want to wind up with the grandma edition.

Volvos are not my cup o tea, needless to say. I haven't had much luck reliability wise with them. I know they are a dime a dozen and parts are EVERYWHERE.

A.J. Johnson, I will possibly be interested in those windshields. I gotta work out what I TRULY want as my rally project before I invest more into my side car. Thank you so much for your insight and Audi knowledge. It has been VERY helpful.

Once again John, your knowledge, friends and insight are saving my butt from making a costly mistake (quite... literally). The advantage analogy was very to the point and clear. The Audi is "unique" and that is all it really had going for it. Yes, it is fun to drive, sounds AMAZING and is fairly peppy.. but it is lacking elsewhere. I have noticed it is a dog to drive and cornering is handled better in my Grand Cherokee! Haha.

I plan on entering at the Ojibwe Forest Pro Rally next summer. (This August would be a bit too soon for me!!)

OK, so for the tl;dr... I am bouncing around vehicles to rally, the old fogies are raging at me, I am digging up forum trolls and I am STILL begging/seeking the Rally Gods' advice. SO... 2000+ Focus. Yes?

One for sale RIGHT NOW locally: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/2442269643.html

Also editing forum topic to Baby's First Rally. LOL.