Not having a sanctioning body means we get to race elephants, which is great, but what else does it mean? Apparently there is no guarantee about insurance, rules, etc. I don't care so much about whether the roads are the right kind, how isolated it is, whether the organizer is Ken Block, and so forth. But I DO care about flying off the road, as I am wont to do, and being sued because I've run over a number of locals who have been allowed to spectate on the outside of a crest into slippy R2 off camber ruts don't cut.

Have there been any other events recently that haven't been sanctioned? What are your experiences with them?

really? unsanctioned? Guess it wants to live up to its name.

Personally, I wouldn't participate in an unsanctioned event for the reasons you mentioned.

While it looks like it's running under NASA rules, per Ray it's not sanctioned by NASA so the group insurance policy and liability coverage is clearly not in effect. Ask the organizer on what the limits and coverages are for the event if you're really curious?

I'm sure others (from an observational standpoint) are curious about the same thing. I'm not asking the tough questions since I'm in no position to even consider the event. But some of you folks on out West may want to ask around and reply back here or on SS on what you find.

The first question I would have is WHY it is not sanctioned by either of the sanctioning bodies that have sanctioned events in the PNW in the past.

Winner!!!!!!!

I believe that if CARS license holders enter a non-sanctioned event they risk having their license suspended. Part of the code of conduct as I recall...

-Martin.

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Slowwpoke
But I DO care about flying off the road, as I am wont to do, and being sued because I've run over a number of locals who have been allowed to spectate on the outside of a crest into slippy R2 off camber ruts don't cut.

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If they are not insured, don't run. Even with insurance at any event under any sanctioning body, you will be named in a lawsuit and could be subject to some loss, but insurance will blunt the damage. (If you are poor, then you have less to worry about.) Ask to see the policy to see if you will be covered by their lawyers in any such lawsuit defense, and the amounts; I'd be loking for $5M. If you have no health insurance, then see what is offered. (That applies to ALL events under all bodies.)

I expect WW will be insured, but be sure as above. Rally NY has run for years as self-sanctioned and self-insured. It has not kept competitors away for that reason alone that I can see.

I would expect the reason for the WW situation is the same as happened for RNY: the perception or reality of safety issues. For WW, I would ask to see the safety plan. See how many spectators areas there are, how easy it is for uncontrolled spectating (clue: how many other access roads are there around the stage roads), and how much spectating is promoted.

Keep your eyes open at the event for uncontrolled spectating and unsafe conditions like in service areas. If it gets bad, bring it to the attention to other competitors and be ready to take action. Better to pull out and lose some expense rather than continue in an unsafe situation. (Easy to say, hard to do, for competitive people....)

Mark B.

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MRWmotorsports
I believe that if CARS license holders enter a non-sanctioned event they risk having their license suspended. Part of the code of conduct as I recall...

-Martin.

I believe it was in the original code of conduct but has since been removed as it is unenforceable and CARS realised they could only enforce behavior at events under its sanction but that beyond that people were free to do what they want. (IE: Targa Newfoundland as an event outside of ASN Candada FIA sanction in recent years)

FIA, on the other hand, still tries to enforce that attitude I beleive.

Getting a straightforward answer to 'why isn't this event sanctioned' will be difficult at best as I imagine there are three or four sides to the story by now.

unsanctioned as in probably not using the insurance from NASA or Rally america but insuraning it for the same or similar coverage from whatever insurance company. Idaho Rally this year was self insured, so technically not a nasa or rally america event but the insurance we covered the same. Reason is the costs where just to high to use their insurance.

Disclaimer: I am speaking only to the subject in general, and specifically NOT addressing particulars of Wild West.

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Slowwpoke
I don't care so much about whether the roads are the right kind,

It's the kind of thing you won't care about until 7 cars blow up their motors because they're flat in fifth for 3 miles. After that, racers will say "Hey, those weren't good roads. Someone should make them use different roads."

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how isolated it is

It's the kind of thing you won't care about until three or four stages are cancelled due to lack of volunteers, because the area is too far from an existing volunteer base. After that, racers will say "Hey, not having enough volunteers really hurt this rally. Someone should say 'Look, either get more volunteers, or don't try to have such a big rally.' "

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whether the organizer is Ken Block

Who the organizer is is the kind of thing you won't care about until something stupid or unreasonable happens, and you later learn that the same person has done the same thing in the past, and it all could have been avoided. After that, the racers will say "Hey, that seems like it could have been avoided if someone checked (whatever it was) or made a rule about (whatever it was)."

The someone mentioned above is usually the sanctioning body. "Sanctioning" roughly means "approving" when you get down to dictionary level. Having an event sanctioned, beyond insurance coverage or what points it counts toward, means another group of people approves of the way that you are running the event and agrees that it meets a standards of operational execution. Having insurance or not is a different thing.

What a sanctioning body does, and what they provide, varies widely from group to group. The insurance part is like, well, having bathrooms at a restaurant. It's the kind of thing that you're only surprised when it's NOT there. Everything else, the food, the service, the menu, the price, the location, the setting, the ambiance... THAT is what makes a restaurant good or not.

Cheers,
Anders

ps: Because the internet has a short memory, I'm repeating this at the bottom. *grin*
Disclaimer: I am speaking only to the subject in general, and specifically NOT addressing particulars of Wild West.

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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Gravity Fed
unsanctioned as in probably not using the insurance from NASA or Rally america but insuraning it for the same or similar coverage from whatever insurance company. Idaho Rally this year was self insured, so technically not a nasa or rally america event but the insurance we covered the same. Reason is the costs where just to high to use their insurance.

Alex:

Looking at the supps for Idaho, it looks like you all had $2M in third-party liability/property damage, and no medical coverage, so it is not the same as either RA or NASA, which insure at $5M in third-party liability and have either $50K or $1M in excess medical, and probably why it was cheaper. Just pointing this out. If I am wrong, let me know.

Regards,

Wilson

Anders, why do you have to be so negative about Wild West?

Hahahaha!

Well played Dave, well played.

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Good discussion, great questions.

There is a small difference between choosing to non-sanction and being refused sanction. Keith is all over that..WHY??? needs to be answered. I've heard rumor of a pretty funny story....

Lack of disclosure is a big one also. I don't remember Idaho mentioning that a lot, but we're no talking Idaho, Wild West is hiding the fact and allowed an innocent party to post incorrect info regarding sanction.

WW will run under pirated rules or JFs rules of the moment.

Non-santioned means no one to fall back on under protests, incidents or logistics. It is all organizer controlled, and this organizer has a history of controversy, several of the organizing staff have had demerits in the past and the involvement of a few solid people continues to puzzle me.

WW has nice smooth freeways for the most part. Massively wide and long straight a ways. Rev limiter, 90* corner, rev limiter, 90* corner. Repeat over and over. Huge rocks off the road, large fence posts, a barn or two near the racing line, heat, dust, cold and NO volunteer base. People can and do drive across their fields to the edge of the road and spectate, but they won't work the event. Everyone has to be imported. So volunteers have to spend several hundred dollars just to go.

Last year the event was cancelled due to safety concerns over the lack of workers. Nothing has changed. The suggestion was made to reduce the physical scope of the event, less roads used. You can't run 10 different roads with one or two stage crews trying to leap frog. But no that isn't considered. Initially they planned to have volunteers on stage for 14 hours, then over my hissy fit that got dropped to 10 hours..still a bit in those conditions. Last year the suggestion was made to just go ahead and wait to see what happened and then cut stages. This after a 7-8 hour tow, rooms rented, entry paid, not quite above board in my book.

No one likes to see events canceled or roads lost, but worse is to see events fall on their face, people unhappy or the very worst...someone injured because of sub-standard events. Support the good events, Mt.Hood or Pacific Forest. Running WW is like adpoting a pitbull from the shelter...might work, probably won't, and when it goes bad it ain't just a little bad.

No medical..really..who'd a thunk. Anyone remember Kathy Rude??

Well, that settles it. Despite jonesing *hard* from a 2 year layoff due to no car, I won't be participating in this one for the above reasons, just for the record, in case the ww organizers read this.