buy my first rally car, or dirtfish 3 day course?

Poll

rally car or rally school?

Only registered users are allowed to vote for this poll.
28 votes were received.

buy my first rally car	24		86%
dirtfish 3 day course	4		14%

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which one?

Before I vote, how far would DirtFish set you back? As in, how damaging would it be to you getting a rally car after that, timeframe/money-rebuild time?

I'm not voting for anything where you can't vote for bacon.

I'm a big believer that you need to know your comfort level in a car so you're not showing up to a school completely green (i.e. know what you don't know or have an idea of what you want to improve and show up to school with a completely open mind).

Maybe this isn't so much of an issue with car stuff, but I remember when friends tried to learn to snowboard. My advice was always to flail for a day by yourself first to find out where you stand, then go take the lesson. The folks that banged up their knees harder were much better off by the end of day 2 than the people that had taken 2 days worth of lessons, I'd guess in part to the fact that the person skipping the lesson on day one also got more runs in...correlation to seat time seat time seat time?

Of course if you've been rally-x-ing for years and are now stepping up to stage rally, you've probably already got a great idea of what you're looking to get out of a school. I'm assuming that Dirtfish also offers shorter schools than the 3-day program, so maybe look at doing a shorter program to get your feet wet and spend a little bit less on your rally car. Then after a few events under your belt try to save up for a longer program?

Dave

Sounds like taking a school might delay your first event as a driver, but the skills you learn will almost certainly make your first car last longer AND make you quicker from the beginning on.
Everything you read on here says that a modest car on a modest budget can do great things locally IF the driver knows how to drive. Having never been to DirtFish I don't know if it is the best option or not. Close doesn't mean best. If New Hampshire is a better school for you then saving longer and still doing it before buying a car is probably the best answer.
I'd also say that once you've bought a car, you'll put money in the car rather than into a school.

I have seen a new driver, who went to a rally school (2 i think) crash and total his car after just a few rallies.

and honestly i don't think anyone has any real hard data that going to a rally school will postpone your first off. It might, it might make your first off happen at a higher speed and total your car.

Do you want to be a rally driver, or do you want to be a student?

rally drivers own cars

students go to class.

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A1337STI
I have seen a new driver, who went to a rally school (2 i think) crash and total his car after just a few rallies.

and honestly i don't think anyone has any real hard data that going to a rally school will postpone your first off. It might, it might make your first off happen at a higher speed and total your car.

Do you want to be a rally driver, or do you want to be a student?

rally drivers own cars

students go to class.

I've seen a new driver who went to team o'neils have a pretty significant off (not totaled - ran the next day, albeit without a working codriver door, several windows, etc) on the second stage of his first rally.

oh wow, i know who you are talking about!

Okay so that's my last 2 rallies I've been to a recently student crashed.

The school makes you faster, so you get to crash faster. I've seen some really slow drivers crash as well.

its racing, if you race you crash. buff out your parts, and race again!

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A1337STI
oh wow, i know who you are talking about!

I'm pretty sure that anyone who was at Idaho this year knows who I am talking about...

In the current "model' of a consumer capitalist economy, everything is a commodity. So naturally a person should a) BUY a ready prepared vehicle because the consumer desire is instantly satisfyied---the overarch "need".
Second, of course a person should go to a "school" in some dirt parking lot and spend thousands and thousands so they can BUY "knowledge".

after they've bought a car and bought knowledge, then they just need to buy a license and then they're a "rally racer"...


How could it possibly be otherwise???

I mean what sort of irresponsible person would even suggest that a person could take $3000 (or whatever figure) and buy a huge fawkin pile of second hand tires and burn them up, spending hours and hours and hours of time repeating in a systematic way all the basic ideas learned, and by repetition, "incorporate' (in the proper sense of the word in---corpus, that is "to get the ideas and the motions "into the body", ) and reinforce the idea
and thereby do what some asutute observers know to be the thing most lacking: pile up miles....

Derek Bottles, who some of you know, some don't , is one of the "smrater-er" guys I've known in the25-26 years I've been around this sport and he said of his visit to some dead flat sand lot in Florida "There was one great thing about it. The cars were junk, the tires poor, the venue simplistic in the extreme, but I got hours and hours and hours of continuous driving in in just a few days. If there was a problem with one car, we'd park it, and jump in another and drive more and more"

We should point out that Derek was/is just a little better off financially than poor boy here asking, so the financial "bite' for those hours and hours was somewhat less 'annoying".


So as always "Poll Fail".

Third option [ ] I need too settle the fawk down and figure out just hopw i can pull this idea off with my current budget and skills set and importantly living where any off island excursion adds hundreds of dollars to even the simplest expedition....


Dood, forget about the miserable 323. You can't afford the mountain of parts those generate even at moderate pace. The cars are---for a rank amateur beginner, far more complex, and far to delicat and far too complicated for you to keep running.

Smash one of the weak front lower control arms---which allegedly according to several 323 owner/friends, and PN checks, UNIQUE to the GTX.
Smash one and you are fuxxored cause there haven't been any available for 10+ years.

Slow down and think: What am I doing on this island where I am basically LOCKED IN?

The most basic thing we all need, all of us is 'seat time" and that is hard enough over here on the mainland in the civilised parts of the state.
You living where you do makes any practice essentially impossible..

Without practice, it is insane to think about wasting entry money.


That would be like booking a concert hall for a piano recital and never practicing before arriving at the scheduled night.
Wahnsinn.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

It is tough to get hard data on things that don't happen.
That said, I have seen, and been in, a few rookie accidents that happened because of actions they would have been taught to not do. I've been with rookies who simply didn't understand what rally was about or why they were there.

The other thing to consider is a school is also a cheaper way to figure out if you suck or just don't like actually rallying. (It could happen)

John's right when he rails on - in other threads - about people being focussed on instant gratification (Buy a car now, learning how to use it be damned). He's also right when he says a good driver can be at the top if the pack in a lesser car in North America.

The way to become a good driver is through seat time and education. Seat time alone, without learning skills or knowing what skills to practice, is pointless and will probably only hard-wire bad habits into your driving style. A school first will provide a solid foundation to build your skills on even if that is finding a parking lot or other area you can tirelessly work through the drills.

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Do you want to be a rally driver, or do you want to be a student?

Isn't that kind of like asking if someone wants to be a brain surgeon or a student?
Hell, even exotic dancers need to learn a thing or two about 'pole management' before they are successful on the stages...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2011 12:47PM by Morison.

You know I think this is a really good question that each person will need to answer themselves. I can share my personal experience.

I bought my first rally car long before I took any classes in driving. On the other hand I took an intro to flying lesson and had my pilot's license long before I even started thinking about buying a plane. I took a motorcycle course before I ever road one and again long before I bought one.

Today as a 42 year old I would always take the class to dip the toe in before I committed myself to an expensive hobby and I think I enjoy the flying and cycling more because I started on the right foot. In both cases I learned a lot in the class about what I wanted to buy or not buy. When it came time to buy my own I made good picks. My enjoyment of my rally car I already owned increased several fold after I went to school. Rallying was way more fun when I knew how to push and could slide the car a bit with confidence. My first rally way back in the day when I knew nothing really was not fun - I took me some 15 years before I drove my second one. Lucky for me I drove the first rally in a borrowed car!

Given that we all have drivers licenses and likely have gotten a bit sporty on the road I am not sure the snow board example applies - we are already ready for class.

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Morison
It is tough to get hard data on things that don't happen.
That said, I have seen, and been in, a few rookie accidents that happened because of actions they may possibly have been taught to not do, if they bothered to pay attention, if they managed to RETAIN what the poor instructor struggled to teach them, and if they simply didn't become an "excitable boy"
I've been with rookies who simply didn't understand what rally was about or why they were there.

The other thing to consider is a school is also a cheaper way to figure out if you suck or just don't like actually rallying. (It could happen) , assuming of course that you equate driving in a giant dirt lot or repeatedly over maybe 1-3 miles of roads 'what rally is".

John's right when he rails on - in other threads - about people being focussed on instant gratification (Buy a car now, learning how to use it be damned). He's also right when he says a good driver can be at the top if the pack in a lesser car in North America.

The way to become a good driver is through seat time and education. It should obviously go without saying, since it is a classic platitude that seat time alone, without learning skills or knowing what skills to practice, is pointless and will probably only hard-wire bad habits into your driving style.
A school first may possibly provide a solid foundation to build your skills on even if that is finding a parking lot or other area you can tirelessly work through the drills. There is, of course, nothing except a chours of claims (which to some observers sound much more like "code-words', social 'markers' than valid data) to indicate that a "school" costing thousands and thousands is any more useful either in the short term or long term than a serious sit down with some guys who have done this nonsense, and sipping beers and smokin some ciggies.

Quote

Do you want to be a rally driver, or do you want to be a student?

Isn't that kind of like asking if someone wants to be a brain surgeon or a student?
Hell, even exotic dancers need to learn a thing or two about 'pole management' before they are successful on the stages...

Just a little editing, seems some people had drilled into their heads that they should only speak in the flat declarittive and never use the dreaded "passive voice"...

Not trying to discuss with you, heaven knows..., merely fleshing out your idea, and stating the things implied but not stated..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Not trying to discuss with you, heaven knows..., merely fleshing out your idea, and stating the things implied but not stated..

...and adding things that were neither implied nor stated.
Feel free to make your own comments, counter-points or suggestions but I don't need your editing of my posts (simple, concise language isn't your forte) and I sure as hell don't need you telling me what I've seen or experienced.

OK, I'm guilty of a couple interstices of post editing for fun (using the well known 'fixed it for you' syntax to indicate humor) but this isn't that.

What you're missing in this is that anyone who is paying thousands of dollars for a school will go there with the intent to learn and will be motivated to do everything they can to get the knowledge they need. Sitting around drinking beer and killing yourself slowly will almost certainly lead to a lack of retention, many unasked questions and - almost certainly - conflicting advice or ideas.

I feel qualified to answer this question as I attended the 3 day Dirtfish school and I bought a built car within a month of each other.

First, my observations about the OP. I take it you are a youngin' and are not established in your career or education yet. I have seen some threads posted on this board with information about your desires and lack of means. No offense kid, but your best bet is to sit back and learn and dedicate your thin resources to building some skills/education and a career before you spend a dime on this hobby.

For me, wanting to rally has been a 10 year desire. Of course during that time, I was building my career, getting married, having a kid and buying and paying off my first house. This year it all came together for me and I had resources at my disposal to take the Dirtfish 3 day school (about $2700 plus my travel costs). Looking back, I would say it was money well spent. I knew about driving on the road and how to brake and plan my apex entrance and exit. Rally is a completely different animal and everything has to be done early and learning to rotate a car on loose traction surfaces so that it is pointed in the right direction when you cross the apex is what the whole Dirtfish school teaches. I know I learned a lot because I was frustrated mid-way through when I just didn't get the whole "earlyness" factor. Frustration=learning in my book. All in all, the instructors at DF were top notch and I got enought seat time to learn.

The drawbacks about DF is that you are leaning in a GroupN car. Suspension, engine, dog box trany....they were great and easy to learn on. My Dodge Neon /= GroupN STi Subaru. Low power, actually have to use the clutch and switch betweeen left foot and right foot for braking depending on the shift, and just different rotation. I wish I had access to their course with my car, it would make a world of difference. That said, I will be dragging some cones out to the local OHV park and practice, practice, practice until I have the feel of the car down pat.

To summarize: Get a skill that allows you to make some money, take a driving school, and ask yourself the question "if I wad up this $10K rally, will it be a significant loss?"