buy my first rally car, or dirtfish 3 day course?

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
Not trying to discuss with you, heaven knows..., merely fleshing out your idea, and stating the things implied but not stated..

...and adding things that were neither implied nor stated, since I don't fully understand how language works.
Feel free to make your own comments, counter-points or suggestions but I don't believe I need your editing of my posts (simple, concise language isn't your forte as far as I can ascertain with my extremely rigid, extremely limited world view) and I sure as hell don't need you telling me what I've seen or experienced, because I already know perfectly everything--which is why I speak in only flat declarative sentences with never a qualifying or mitigating phrase.

OK, I'm guilty of a couple interstices of post editing for fun (using the well known 'fixed it for you' syntax to indicate humor) but this isn't that.

What you're missing in this is that anyone who is paying thousands of dollars for a school will Absolutely unarguably because I said so, they WILL go there with the intent to learn and will be motivated to do everything they can to get the knowledge they need.
Sitting around drinking beer and killing yourself slowly will almost certainly lead to a lack of retention, many unasked questions and - almost certainly - conflicting advice or ideas, because I said so and I know everything that you say to everybody because I have spoken to you in person so many times, and I know what people in the future will ask and I know not only what every person will ask I know exactly what you will answer them and what you will neglect to say...

Fixed that for you...

I wonder what life is like when a person is so positive and never qualifies a statement. must be....certain.


"A state of doubt is unpleasant, but a state of certainty is ridiculous." Voltaire

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2011 02:50PM by john vanlandingham.

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Morison
What you're missing in this is that anyone who is paying thousands of dollars for a school will go there with the intent to learn and will be motivated to do everything they can to get the knowledge they need.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you've never worked at a driving school. I've seen students come in with "lots of experience" and believe they know all. These usually fall into two categories. Young folks with the invincible complex, and mid-life crisis guys who own a fancy car. Ever seen the Extranormal Flat Out video?



Honestly those sort of attitudes confuse the hell outta me, because no matter who you are, you can always get better...and the fact that they're spending a good bit of coin just makes it that much harder to believe. At the end of the day, the "I already know everything" types took away far less than the guy who came there because he had driven in slippery conditions and wasn't sure why the car was doing XYZ when he made certain inputs.

I'll admit my 'learning to snowboard' example probably wasn't a great fit, but driving on the street and rally driving are different enough. Alot of things that feel like the right thing to do are the opposite of what you should be doing in a race car.

Dave

I myself spent a decent amount of time up at team oneil. I can say that while expensive, it was money well spent as I feel like my first car- Which I recently purchased with lowest cost in mine- Will last longer. The trick as John not too subtly alluded to, is to not be an a**hat with your instructors. I work at a place in manhattan that involves many "schooled" veterans yet who - for example- cant drive. That is simply because of ego.
If you pay attention and don't drive beyond your limits I would say that the money is well spent for sure.
If not then it's going to be doubly expensive and you'll look like the previously mentioned a**hat. Doesn't mean you are of course.

Also, I have only done one rallycross so I'm pretty inexperienced... But I don't think I'm entirely wrong.

Go fuck yourself John.

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Morison
Go fuck yourself John.

Morison, it seems you don't like somebody pointing out the continual massive presumptions implied by your writing style.

You're a photographer. Why would you imagine that you understand how language works? I'm just trying to show how your words convey a certain feeling...

And now you go and get all upset...

The reason I decline to "have a conversation" with you is because everything you say is overflowing with the presumptions that I was so kind to elucidate for you... Look at as me taking valuable time to reveal those assumptions, and thereby help you understand why you seem like such a rigid, know it all putz....

See when you write something, everything really, so full of unspoken presumptions, it is really silly to respond only to the written words, especially when they are mostly repetition of obvious, common ideas, what some call "The Party Line" and simultaneously imply so much.


Perhaps you should stick to that which you pay the rent with, since that is your area of expertise.

Clearly critical thinking isn't you're strong suite.


And i was just trying to help....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Kids, kids, kids....settle down.


I'd get a car first.
You can do all sorts of things with a car before your first rally.....RallyX, AutoX, track days, get groceries, drag race, drift (depending on the business end) and so on. You can't do much of anything with 3 days of schooling, especially if you get a different car than being taught in. You may learn bad habits from the instructor, everyone has different skills and abilities. I'd guess all of us old farts got into racing at whatever level or venue without any motorsport schooling and we survived. Get a few miles then do a school to improve on the skills you have or develope naturally.

For example I tend to drive with my left hand mostly (manual steering to boot) and I've been known to totally let go of the steering wheel coming out of a slide so it centers faster and grab it when I want it to stop. Works for me but I'm a pretty big guy (with short legs). Instructors hate seeing that stuff however.

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john vanlandingham
And i was just trying to help....

Yet you continue to show that you know nothing about me what-so-ever.

The beauty of concise writing, in my opinion anyway, is that people who are actually interested in engaging in conversation don't simply take unqualified and 'firm' statements as unchallengeable. In university I have seen Professors who would regularly make blunt statements of fact, even in the humanities and 'soft' sciences. I have also challenged those statements when I either didn't understand or didn't agree with them. On more than one occasion, I successfully swayed the professor's view of the statement and the resulting discussion was a positive experience for everyone in the class. More regularly, I'd get 'I thought that once as well, and you've forgotten about this aspect.'

It's a shame you're so afraid of words and/or how they are used.

You are mistaking a firm statement for a closed mind and an unwillingness to change a position. My experiences have shown me that is a SERIOUS mistake.

On the other hand, you've exhibited an unrelenting commitment to what you think is right. A commitment that is so strong that it puts off potential customers and actually costs you business. You prefer lengthy essays filled with back-handed statements and insulting language that falls firmly under the 'baffle them with bullshit' column. Further, if anyone questions your position, you open the spigot and spew some more.

So... why not try some brevity John. I think everyone on Anarchy and the other forums you post on would appreciate it.

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DaveK
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you've never worked at a driving school.

Correct. I've helped out with some of the local schools but haven't 'worked' at a driving school for any length of time.

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DaveK
I've seen students come in with "lots of experience" and believe they know all. These usually fall into two categories. Young folks with the invincible complex, and mid-life crisis guys who own a fancy car.

Yah. Poor choice of words on my part. Perhaps 'paying thousands of dollars to learn at a school' would have been better. There are certainly some people who go to schools to show off their skills and maybe be 'discovered.'
There are also others who refuse to learn no matter how hard you try and tell them things.

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
And i was just trying to help....

Yet you continue to show that you know nothing about me what-so-ever.

The beauty of concise writing, in my opinion anyway, is that people who are actually interested in engaging in conversation don't simply take unqualified and 'firm' statements as unchallengeable. In university I have seen Professors who would regularly make blunt statements of fact, even in the humanities and 'soft' sciences. I have also challenged those statements when I either didn't understand or didn't agree with them. On more than one occasion, I successfully swayed the professor's view of the statement and the resulting discussion was a positive experience for everyone in the class. More regularly, I'd get 'I thought that once as well, and you've forgotten about this aspect.'

It's a shame you're so afraid of words and/or how they are used.

You are mistaking a firm statement for a closed mind and an unwillingness to change a position. My experiences have shown me that is a SERIOUS mistake.

On the other hand, you've exhibited an unrelenting commitment to what you think is right. A commitment that is so strong that it puts off potential customers and actually costs you business. You prefer lengthy essays filled with back-handed statements and insulting language that falls firmly under the 'baffle them with bullshit' column. Further, if anyone questions your position, you open the spigot and spew some more.

So... why not try some brevity John. I think everyone on Anarchy and the other forums you post on would appreciate it.

Oh you silly shelter child, how in the world could you so purposely miscontrue anything in me to conclude i am afraid of words?
Shirley, you jest....

see, Morison, I think without you knowing it, you are actaully an idiot. Being an idiot you don't know you are an idiot, that's one of the drawbacks of being an idiot...

Another is your delusions that you write clearly and concisely.
I think you write 99% platitudes, restating the obvious in a annoying, nasal whine which you imagine sounds serious.

I really wonder how you feed yourself without hurting either yourself of the silverware you might use.

And you can repeat you bullshit about "if anyboy questions...' but like the slime ball Republicans down here, repeating a slimey lie, doesn't make it so no matter how many times you do it..
ANYBODY who actually speaks (that means TALKS, where tone is obvious, where even extremely myopic uptight Morons) can HEAR the gentle sarcasm and the often "well i don't know, let's ee if we can figure it out".

Of course I have an UNRELENTING commitment to what I believe is right, how could one risk thousands in materials, time and effort if I was some soft, fat, wishy washy whiner whose goal in life is to hang out with men doing things they are incapable of---like you?

See, Morison you're so stupid, so blinded by your would up hate that you don't , or can't see that its not WHAT you say---as we have established, is nothing ever new, or insightful, or funny, or original--------it's the wheedling, whiney faux-seriousness that makes you a putz.

And you can't read either what's written or the "implications" because your head if full already. Your truly unfathomably idiotic comments on the Finland WRC thread where you somehow, in your twisted mind, so full of hate, that you could somehow imagine that I thought or suggested Block would have any "development" work to do for or with Ford...
You were right, only an idiot could imagine anybody would be suggesting that...
Hi idiot.
The reference was OBVIOUSLY a blatant joke.


Can't you go be concise elsewhere, or get off your fucked up highhorse?
Cause in all the years here there's been just 3-4 people with any of the negative shit you endless dig up.
The shit you see Morison is the shit inside your own head...so its no surprise you see shit everywhere.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I agree with Gene totally!

while i was building up my rally car i did autox, rallyX, groceries, a drag race *cough maybe* , drove random dirt roads. and i don't mean balls out rally driving, but trail driving, adventure driving, even some Mild, mild rock crawling. yes you can trail drive and rock crawl with a fwd, open diff car.

I've been a driving instructor for : Intro to Autocross, Teen survival school, CRS Rally school, and the Primitive rally school.

I actually instructed someone who i then raced against in the next 2 rallies!

also this doesn't have to be black and white..

Buy the car, do the primitive school in Washington for like $300 (it comes usually mixed in with a mini TSD + a rally cross) there are other TSD's in your area, along with Brisk TSDs

play for a while. autox, rallyx, do a stage rally. Then circle back and do a big school. I just finished rally #15. (15 sounds big if you've done <10, but in the grand scheme of things its not much) I'm still learning how to drive better. I would love to do a big school, ... but not at the cost of 2 stage rallies .. not just yet but probably soon.

also you can start your rally dreams AND start a career that will fund your hobby. If you are typing on this forum (not your publicist) then rally will be a hobby for you, not a career

You know John, I really thought you were a wee bit more self-aware.

If someone disagrees with you, or comes to the forum with an idea or plan that you think is a bad one you predictably and relentlessly badger them into thinking an XRatty or 240 is the only answer. That isn't a lie, it is plain and simple observation.

As for your fear of words, if you don't find them fearful why else would you regularly use them as a tool in your bullying. When faced with someone who doesn't see the world the same way you do you default to schoolyard name-calling and swearing... presumably to virtually puff out your chest and make the others 'back down.'

Doesn't work with me because words don't scare me and I don't really care if you think I'm an idiot who's full of shit. Your opinion doesn't mean a thing to me.

See, I'm happy to accept that you and I will probably disagree more often than agree. I don't have a need to call you names or swear at you (in general, at least, it got the better of me earlier today and I apologise.)

When people ask... I tell them that you have a great deal of knowledge and demonstrated skill as a fabricator but that they should talk to people who have actually done business with you. I always recommend people talk to people who have done business with a potential supplier. I would say the same about Rocket, 4Star, AllWheelsDriven, etc.

Funny thing... recently someone described you as a 'crook' in a conversation. I immediately took them to task suggesting that 'crook' implies intent and that I didn't think you would intentionally cheat people.

So mebbe we can just drop the squabling and not ruin someone elses thread? Please??

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heymagic
So mebbe we can just drop the squabling and not ruin someone elses thread? Please??

I'd be more than happy to Gene.

holy shit, what the fawk did I sign up for around here? I was not told that tampax would be required

Driving schools are great if you have the means. If you don't, buy some cones and trial and error until you learn to steer the car with the brake and gas pedal.

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derek
You know I think this is a really good question that each person will need to answer themselves. I can share my personal experience.

I bought my first rally car long before I took any classes in driving. On the other hand I took an intro to flying lesson and had my pilot's license long before I even started thinking about buying a plane. I took a motorcycle course before I ever road one and again long before I bought one.

Today as a 42 year old I would always take the class to dip the toe in before I committed myself to an expensive hobby and I think I enjoy the flying and cycling more because I started on the right foot. In both cases I learned a lot in the class about what I wanted to buy or not buy. When it came time to buy my own I made good picks. My enjoyment of my rally car I already owned increased several fold after I went to school. Rallying was way more fun when I knew how to push and could slide the car a bit with confidence. My first rally way back in the day when I knew nothing really was not fun - I took me some 15 years before I drove my second one. Lucky for me I drove the first rally in a borrowed car!

Given that we all have drivers licenses and likely have gotten a bit sporty on the road I am not sure the snow board example applies - we are already ready for class.

First there is a lot of good advice in the responses to your original question.

hmmmm. Derek has gotten me thinking after reading his post. As someone that has both dipped a toe into and dove head first into a few expensive and time consuming hobbies in my 39 years I would suggest an option that you did not list. and seeing some friends end up selling barely used hobby equipment cheap.

why not try either the 2 hour "rally experience" or 4 hour "rally intro" course at dirtfish these are both under $600 and should not hurt your car buying budget and will give you enough of a taste to see if this is an activty you are willing invest in or something you want to cross off your "bucket list" (I hate that term). as an alternative spend $50 to go play a local rallyX to get a taste with some actual competiton.