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SeanP

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mack73
But at the end of the day, you're driving a AWD car - so a lot of it won't transfer to a 2WD.....

.

I will disagree with this. In getting a car to rotate, the physics are the same in 2WD vs. AWD. The only difference is how fast you can come out of a corner. You might benefit from some engine braking on throttle lift on turn-in a bit more in AWD, but the concept of Lift-Turn-Brake-Wheelstraight-Throttle are going to be the same.

Not to be a meanie but doesn't it strike you a little odd that one with such minimal time on gravel should be speaking --or writing--with such certainty?

Now, personally I agree that the task and the methods are pretty much the same FWD---RWD or AWD.....but your order listed above seems odd.....
and virtually guaranteed to send you off the outside of a corner front first.

Sorta like this:


Eslewhere you said:

Quote

We just completed our second competition yesterday at Mendocino Rally and, as Doug mentioned, North Nevada Rally in July. The weight transfer and car control skills from DF helped immensely. I focused on only LFBing in Mendocino and really got comfortable with it and agree that it is indispensable to go fast in low traction FWD. I can get the car mostly rotated with lift and steering input, but keeping the throttle pinned around a 3+ and working the brake is awesome. Now if we only had recce and accurate stage notes, maybe this would not have happened.

I say you gassit, chop/lift---chop throttle is what I say, BRAKE hard enough to affect a weight shit---off brakes and simultaneously initiate, then roll on the gas----then full throttle.

I have only rallied a fwd, and I gently suggest that the filling of beginner's heads with ideas that they should be giving ANY thought to what is inarguably an advanced driving technique when they are rank beginner leads to those rank beginners driving off the road exactly as the photo shows you did, exactly as local boy Christian Wheeler did with his Focus at Idaho last year (and rolled 2-4 times)..
He had also done one or 1 1/2 events and had gone to the flat grassy field where Oregon Rally group ran their "grass-o-cross" affairs and he was also
rock solid certain that LFB was "indispensable"..

I asked "If it is indispenseable, then how do you explain many drivers driving FWD and AWD far FAR faster than you can imagine who do not LFB?" I mentioned I never LFB.

Like your straight off in the piccie, he had perfect visibility, and a simple turn---no surprises.
Like you he said made rumbles that "if we had better notes and co driver hadn't called the note 1 second late we woulda...."

WAIT! The turn was a simple kink, perfectly and totally clear view--similar to what we see in the piccie-----you don't need ANY instruction at all for that----if you have any idea what you are doing...


I gently suggest that the emphasis on the "indispensabily" to concentrate on the advanced driving technique of LFB which all the "schools" hammer into innocent beginner's heads de-emphasizes the place of whereLFB should be at the expense of simple fundementals like GAS, and BRAKE--for decell----accurate steering inputs---all to make sure rule 1 is honored: KEEP IT ON THR ROAD---and make no great blunders...

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Now if we only had recce and accurate stage notes, maybe this would not have happened.

How would recce and more accurate notes prevented you from understeering straight off on a clear flat simple gentle turn?


What is needed is more honesty in assessing accidents or errors, and zeroing in accurately on the initial error in thinking about the "appoach' to the task, rather than suggesting that frills external of the brain like recce and more accurate notes would have saved you from plowing off.

It seems we (me too!) need more practice in driving and more practice in saying
"Aw shit, I fawked up cause I went crazy....", rather than the ritual of these schools which seem to be best at supplying a vocabulary of rationalisations and excuses...."



(course might help not to be in understeering pigs for cars, but hey, I never understeered straight ahead in my beloved Saab and I did some pretty good top 10 national stage times in decent fields some good top 6 times too.
FWD, no LFB, and top 6 national times (mid 90s so plenty of turbo awd cars including Escort Cosworth, Evobitchy, Eclipsed, Gaylants,
Hyundai-bitchy etc.)

More basics first, not advanced subtle refined techniques.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

i think it may be a lack of sleep, but every time i see this thread title, i see "buy first rally car or Dirt 3 video game"

John

Why do I get the feeling that there is some medication that hasn't been taken today?


The question is: Is a driving school valuable? My answer is yes, if only for the reason that it is a safe environment to learn to turn a car with a margin for error.

The prior owner of my car was, in his own mind, a pretty good driver with a decent National record. He basically told me to drive the car fast and to get it rotated with the spool front, long wheel base, and nose-heavy weight distribution, LFB was particulary effective. Should I have used a rally with non-functional route book and exposed dropoffs to practice this technique? Maybe not, but when I can only get seat time at $500 a shot (plus expenses), I am not going to waste the opportunity.

I drove off the road there because I initiated the turn too late with too much speed. Plain and simple. The entrance to the turn was blind, it could have been a 5 or a 3 (minus). I choose poorly, as the movie quote goes.

Meh, what do I know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 05:50PM by SeanP.

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John

Why do I get the feeling that these is some medication that hasn't been taken today?

I don't know, did you miss a pill that controls thiose feelings that everything is about you? As in your worth as a person?
We're trying to analyze what MIGHT be learned at these so called "schools' and if that might be helpful or neutral or harmful....

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The question is: Is a driving school valuable? My answer is yes, if only for the reason that it is a safe environment to learn to turn a car with a margin for error.

Agreed, but is that significant?

T

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he prior owner of my car was, in his own mind, a pretty good driver with a decent National record. He basically told me to drive the car fast and to get it rotated with the spool front, long wheel base, and nose-heavy weight distribution, LFB was particulary effective. Should I have used a rally with non-functional route book and exposed dropoffs to practice this technique? Maybe not, but when I can only get seat time at $500 a shot (plus expenses), I am not going to waste the opportunity.

I drove off the road there because I initiated the turn too late with too much speed. Plain and simple. The entrance to the turn was blind, it could have been a 5 or a 3 (minus). I choose poorly, as the movie quote goes.

Meh, what do I know.

Ahhh! the most basic common amatuer error!
Now at the JVAB Soooper Bitchin Rally School you would have had HAMMERED into your head the fact that the overwhelming most common error amatuers make is trying too hard, and in motorized junk--bikes cars moto-cross, circle track whatever it means too fast and too deep into corners....
So sorta proves the point that schools MAY teach some things, but their emphasis on advanced finess tricks LEAVES OUT the commonest, the 99% cause of offs, crashes etc---to hard and fast IN..

How many things have you crashed in your life?

Me....quite literally thousands of times...


Oh and about your missed medication, just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get ya!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

More politically correct (Morrison has a valid point), isn't this nicer





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 09:48PM by SeanP.

this should help get my point across in a nicer, albeit more juvenile manner







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 09:50PM by SeanP.

[quote="john vanlandingham ... too hard and fast IN.[/quote]

Which then leads to the common PR header... "for immediate and full release."

photo change ruined my comment



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 11:54PM by A1337STI.

The photo of the Neon? above is exactly how my first ever rally ended.

I was driving a RX2 and went wide on exit. Them doors are very heavy when opening up!

I have rallyed in AWD, FWD and RWD. They are all the same in all the ways that count.

Say Sean, who has done two rallies, and not too successfully,

I have a vague gnawing suspicion that you don't quite like the really sterling, thoughtful advice you've been given by somebody vastly more experienced, vastly faster, and who has never driven straight off the road like that.
Why do I have that feeling?

Further, I have a sneaking feeling that your use of the highly offensive picture of some poor kids and the words 'retard' indicates you feel you are somehow in a position to ridicule others, me specifically.

Don't you think you might learn a bit more if you listened and asked questions---even if the answers might require some reflection and honesty?

In a way your I don't know what responses illustrates the very problems of "schools": people that know essentially nothing not paying attention to their superiors, when what their instructors are saying probably goes way way over their heads.


No you may not be very experienced---obviously--- but by ridiculing the excellent advice given you are missing far far more important lessons : how to really zero in on where the errors occurred that led to____________ (fill in the blank)...

Now I don't know about you, but I always found that it was in rigorous analysis of mistakes I made that allowed me to, most of the time, continue improvement, and trust me (or not---makes no difference to me) I have had ample opportunity since 1967 to study a hugely wide range of mistakes in every aspect of motorsports from a rank beginner all the way to paying the rent and buying trucks and making fairly stupid money from my racing (actually only about 4-5 times the average yearly salary for an industrial worker---which in Europe then was 'the average wage"(but my pay was tax-free so it was a bit better)

No I was helped in that long road by all sorts of people who instructed me on every aspect of building, and maintaining and racing, drive techniques, start techniques, braking techniques, physical conditioning (this was a sport just a hair more physically demanding than sitting on my butt in a PS equipped sedan) Injury recovery, the ins and outs out negotiating Start money, customs issues, jobs, apartments, and above all learning to honestly self-critique my driving, which they did by example..
Odd as it may seem to you, but I don't think I ever tried to paint them as retards. or what they were sharing as 'retarded"...

Or did I miss the whole point entirely?

Were you being hard on yourself for arguing, when you should be paying close attention? I that what the photos are supposed to convey?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

John, are you familiar with the term bloviate?

Thanks for whipping out your e-cawk and hijacking this poor young man's thread with your interminable self-important bloviating. I haven't met you in person, but boy have I met "you" many times in my life. Good fucking lord, your soap box is starting to crack under the weight of your diatribes. Yeah, I get you have some experience and knowledge. I do in my field of work too, but I sure don't whip my dick out and mark my territory with some holier-than-thou nonsense.

Where is the ignore button on this site?

John, you need to stop picking on the new guy.


First,

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john vanlandingham
who has never driven straight off the road like that.

But.....

Quote
john vanlandingham
How many things have you crashed in your life?

Me....quite literally thousands of times...

so how'd you crash those thousands of times then? And how is it that your multiple crashes make you able to share your experiences in this thread, but he can't? At some point YOU had only one crash under your belt, no? Why can't he post his opinion on here w/o ridicule? he's made it very clear to everyone what his experience is, he's not trying to make himself look smarter than he is, he's even willing to admit his mistakes publicly; yet, you made it very clear that his opinion isn't worth much.....

Quote
JVL
doesn't it strike you a little odd that one with such minimal time on gravel should be speaking --or writing--with such certainty?

How do you expect one to respond to a comment like that? Its very clear you're not joking around here. Hell, it would have been better if you typed, 'You fawkin' noob!!'.

If my 'teacher' came at me with an attitude like that, i'd tell them to pound sand too. I don't care if I was in a car with Marcus Gronholm himself, if he treated me like that, I wouldn't listen much either.


here's an example....

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JVL
KEEP IT ON THR ROAD---and make no great blunders...

its funny how you say that, but have no problem ripping into me on here when I've been slow on stages, that's for sure. What was your comment to me when I said I was going to 'take it easy' at Idaho? some backhanded comment about my dogbox transmission that was supposed to get a rise out of me or something.....it certainly wasn't any advice like, "Yup...Jon, you're still learning.....keep it on the road and don't make any mistakes....but no matter what, shift fast!"


Its sad how you're so willing to help us (and you DO help), yet in situations like this, you really go off and alienate yourself on random/useless fighting when you should be spouting off tons of rally knowledge, but instead you spout your venom on some random guy that's brand new to the sport.

_____________________



back on topic. Regarding Sean's recent off......IMO, no one ever learned much by playing it safe. You don't become good at anything by never falling down, or pushing your limits.

Actually I agree with what John has to say (as quoted below.)
Sometimes you just have to read between the lines a bit.

Like John (actually) said, you need to take an honest look at what the team did that contributed to the accident.
I was in one accident some time ago that was very nearly life changing. Afterwards, the driver and I were able to find contributing factors in what we did as far back as the beginning of the stage (19 km.) The important part of that discussion was there was never any finger pointing or blaming. It was a simple attempt to understand what went wrong and I've used lessons from that crash in EVERY event since.

The pic... grow up. There are better pics to illustrate the futility of arguing online that don't take a swipe at a sector of society that generally isn't going to defend itself.

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john vanlandingham
Sean, there is a lot that can be learned from an incident like yours if you have the right approach.

It can be tough hearing the accident could have been easily avoided, but learning from the experience and misfortunes of others is a great way to grow as a driver. Of course we all have to make our share of mistakes but as long as we learn from them they aren't a complete waste.

Don't you think you might learn a bit more if you listened and asked questions---even if the answers might require some reflection and honesty? To really grow you need to learn how to really zero in on where the errors occurred that led to____________ (fill in the blank)...

I always found that it was in rigorous analysis of mistakes I made that allowed me to continue improvement. I have had ample opportunity since 1967 to study a hugely wide range of mistakes in every aspect of motorsports. I'm sure you're not aware of it but I've been 'around the block' in a couple of different motorsports. When I had the chance, I would soak-up the knowledge and experience of seasoned competitors whenever I could.

Ultimately you will have to learn your own lessons and decide what advice to take... but discounting other people's experience is pretty ill-advised.

So, forget about no recce, bad tulips, scary roads... what mistakes did YOU make to contribute to the off?

PS: The picture you posted is about as offensive as they get for so many reasons I don't know where to start. I have to assume it was a general poke at the sometimes spirited nature of discussions here and not a direct attack on me. OK, i know we are supposed to treat this like a bunch of friends bullshitting the the garage, but really... that pic is an uncalled for low-blow.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 08:58PM by Morison.

Quote
Morison
Actually I agree with what John has to say (as quoted below.)
Sometimes you just have to read between the lines a bit.

and that's my point, the 'good' info gets lost in the messaging because no one wants to have to sift through all that BS.

I find John's attacking style in just as much bad taste as the photos. At least the photos only illustrate the pointlessness of arguing on the web, they don't speak to John as a person or his opinions. John straight up said, "you're opinion doesn't count here."

Sorry, but I'm going to call you out on that.


Just be a better person and discuss the points of your opinions with facts and experience, w/o all the 'you've only done X events so your opinion isn't valid BS'. Or worse, "I've done blah blah blah, so your opinion isn't nearly as good as mine."

----------------------


Now, everyone needs to go over to my other thread I'm about to bump up with photos and critique my amateur fab/welding skills.

Jon summed up my impressions directly. I know fuck-all about rally, but more everyday and have spent time in anger behind the wheel of non-rally vehicles. John, I have to say after being on this site for two whole weeks, you sure come off verbosely condescending. So much so that if faced with taking advice in that manner and wadding up my car, welll...it's a good thing I know how to fix broken cars.