omfg, a tow vehicle?

Quote
starion887

Quote
fiasco
Not sure who's insurance company ended up buying the new truck. Gas station refused responsibility and everybody started throwing lawyers at each other...

I've seen green gas pump handles for 87 unleaded in NH. Gotta be careful.

BP? All the BP stations down this way have green on the gas handles and black on the diesel. All other stations follow the "green = diesel" convention. So, BP is bowing to the greenies and using that for marketing; wish I could find a law to stop the confusion. I end up so worried I smell the end of the nozzles anymore....probably looks prety weird!

Mark B.

I think it's Hess stations, but it could also be BP, or both.

Quote
Cosworth

Quote
starion887
BTW, how often do club level ralliers do 1000 km tows in Europe?

Heck, only a couple of contries have a 1000km a cross the widest part period!

I just came back from RWV, a mere 300 miles for me. If I was still living in Portugal, that distance would take me to any rally in the championship (except islands) and most of the rallies in Spain as well!

It's quite the paradox. We tow further than Europeans, and because of that we feel we need twice the power, which hurts mileage, making each mile we tow that much more expensive.

I do agree a turbo diesel van is the best towing option. I just couldn't make the numbers add up to justify it when I bought my van (2006). With today's gas & diesel prices, I think it becomes a lot easier to justify the price premium for a diesel rig.

Quote
fliz
[
It's quite the paradox. We tow further than Europeans, and because of that we feel we need twice the power, which hurts mileage, making each mile we tow that much more expensive.

I do agree a turbo diesel van is the best towing option. I just couldn't make the numbers add up to justify it when I bought my van (2006). With today's gas & diesel prices, I think it becomes a lot easier to justify the price premium for a diesel rig.

Way back when for some reason every gawd damn week I was driving from Stockholm in Sweden down to the farthest points in ONLY France ( 'scuse no Italia, no Espanga tooo far, not enough pay) and then back and forth down there for 4-6 weeks at a stretch---or later full time for 4-6 months.....

I used to figure on trips "Hokay , figure the KMs, the cost will be like miles back in 'Merikuh, and double the TIME it would take...
Here's a nice overlay---well nice if you know whatcher looking at:

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
starion887
Yeah, makes sense. I used to sell equipment for companies from Germany and Italy (still do but indirectly now), and I recall when one of the applications engineers came over for a week of sales support work. He ended up going from NY to DC to NV, back to OH, and then to CA in one week. After that, he said he understood how big the USA is, and was bit more in tune with the USA mentality. Not that he agreed with it, he just accepted it more. The larger American cars in lttle, ancient European streets not only look out of proportion to what is expected for a car there, it can be a real issue getting around. They do OK on the Autobahn, though.

Yeah, like I wrote I've been to the States around 6 times, and of those, two have been road trips. So I kinda get it - you live in a damn big country .

Quote

BTW, how often do club level ralliers do 1000 km tows in Europe? It's pretty common here. 70 mph makes it tolerable; 55 mph is miserable. And with power requirements going up drastically with speed increases from 55 to 70 just to push the air apart, a powerful engine makes sense.

First of all - do mean 1000 km one way, or 1000 km round trip?
Obviously I can't speak for guys in other European countries, but here in Denmark (which is a pretty small country - at worst we have around 550 km between the furthers corners), I think 1000 km one way is fairly uncommon. For me, that would put me a fair distance into Germany - around middle of Germany depending on how far of course to the left or right I get from just going straight down .
It would also get me QUITE far up in Sweden. So with fairly active rally clubs in Denmark, pretty active organizers in Germany and VERY active clubs in southern Sweden (and maybe the rest of Sweden as well - most likely I would guess), that means that there are huge amounts of events to go to within much more reasonable distances.
Club level events that is part of the south Swedish championship - where one performing consistently good over the entires series and winning the finales could cash in up to 7-8000$ - draw +150 participants. When the event is part of some bigger championship like the Swedish national championship or even the WRC event, the numbers just go up even higher, reaching 200.

We have nowhere near that here - but we do have 5 or 6 events in the national championship and at least 15 sprints a year, along with maybe a handful of shorter one-day stage rallies. Since nothing is further away for anybody than 550 km one way, "nobody" "needs" to tow any further to get their fix, and most tow maybe 200-300 km. one way at the most.

I know that a few of the front runners in the Danish championship every now and then go to middle and southern Europe - like France for example. I've heard of some going to eastern Europe and the Baltics as well. But it mainly the talents or frontrunners that do it, and far from all of them. Of those that do, they do it MAYBE once a year - possibly less.

We have one guy in hour club that only does gravel events, and since everything in Sweden is gravel, and just about nothing in Denmark gravel - he always goes to Sweden. But with the amount of events there, he rarely needs to tow more than 500-550 km one way.

Anyway - I still feel that 6.5 litre turbo diesel is way overkill. Just for kicks I checked some service/towing rigs for sale here, and they tend to be 2.5-3.2 litre vans - large vans (by our standards), and they produce around 130-150 hp, and 240 to 270 tq. Generally not that much torque - just with lower gearings to get started.
My trailer will take up to 1500 kgs. and it weighs 500 kgs. by itself. My Golf weighs around 1000-1100 kgs so I'm towing maybe 1600 kgs. My Mondeo weighs around the same by itself, and then we are two guys, some tools, spares, a couple of wheels, a tent and what not - maybe add an extra 500 kg. total. All in all maybe 3700 kg from front license plate of the Mondeo to the license plate of the trailer .
I have done around 65 mph in that - which wasn't exactly stable I might add... but powerwise, there were no problems (again: this is a flat country).
And like I said: lots of caravanners does 2-4000 km. round trips at least once a year, with similar or even more loaded setups. And they DO go into the Alps and other mountains, and get away with it.
So .... I still don't quite get it - but with trailers weighing way over a tonne just by itself, I sorta get why a bit more power is required. However... you might get away with something bit more... small

---

Brgrds
Brian

The closest rally to me is 1400 kms one way.

The US market doesn't get any of the smaller diesel engines for the most part.
With the length of the tows, comfort is also important. I've done the aforementioned 1400 km tow with an extended cab F150 with a small bench in the back with four of us. It was a nightmare. I drove the first shift than sat in the back and drank beer for the rest of the trip just to make it more bearable.
Crew cabs and passenger vans are nice. I lean towards a crew cab diesel truck or a Sprinter van personally. Dave Kern's Duramax crew cab had absolutely no issue hauling my car and trailer over the Rocky's. I passed two other competitors right at the bottom of Rabbit Ears pass. One in a F350 crew cab dually, the other in a Toyota Tacoma (I don't know how he dealt with towing with that honestly).

Quote
NoCoast
The US market doesn't get any of the smaller diesel engines for the most part.

... or cars for that matter...
I know that Jetta's and Passats are somewhat available in TDi's over on your end - but I have a feeling that they are way rare. How about other brands? Can you even get a regular American family car (Chevy, US Ford, etc.) with a diesel engine in it?
Like I mentioned earlier, of those cars I would guess that it's a 50-50 split between gas and diesel here in Denmark. And we actually have a pretty high ratio of gasoline cars vs. diesels. In Spain and such, diesel is even more common
(Denmark is a pretty late "bloomer" when it comes to accepting diesel powered family cars - this is due a very high tax on cars of 180%. With diesel cars tending to be more expensive from the factory, tripling that price difference makes quite an impact. With gasoline cheap relatively to the price of buying the car, most tended to go with gasoline cars for saving on acquiring, and paying a bit more for driving. But with price of oil going up, people have started to buy diesels here as well in the last 10 years or so - since diesel oil is cheaper than gasoline here (not so in most of the rest of Europe), and the better mileage they get)

Quote

With the length of the tows, comfort is also important. I've done the aforementioned 1400 km tow with an extended cab F150 with a small bench in the back with four of us. It was a nightmare. I drove the first shift than sat in the back and drank beer for the rest of the trip just to make it more bearable.
Crew cabs and passenger vans are nice. I lean towards a crew cab diesel truck or a Sprinter van personally. Dave Kern's Duramax crew cab had absolutely no issue hauling my car and trailer over the Rocky's. I passed two other competitors right at the bottom of Rabbit Ears pass. One in a F350 crew cab dually, the other in a Toyota Tacoma (I don't know how he dealt with towing with that honestly).

1400 kms one way... man that's mean . That could take me to Paris... you sure need some more events!

---

Brgrds
Brian

Most all of our secondary 2 lane roads have speed limits above 50mph. Most locals will drive that road at 55-60mph. Pull outs and passing lanes are a bit far between, some roads have none. Delay of 7(?) cars behind you are illegal in our state. Towing over here with a 200tq engine will at some point get your back window shot out.....


The tow dolly thing is fine until both ends of the car get pooched or you have to turn around, same with tow bars. Can work, can make the trip miserable. Trailers cost more, weigh more but can have an open centered deck that works well for under car repairs in some cases. Kindofa pick your poison deal.

Over here the only car diesels have been

A) Mercedes all years back to 180D
very few MkI VW "Rare-bits" 1,6 n.a
C) Peugeot beginning with the 504, most n.a. some turbos. Some 505
D) a very few MkII Golves some with turbo, maybe '85 or 86 only
E) some horrible 'merikun V8 vomit I dun't know--don't want to.
F) some current VWs---very very rare..

Vans were Fords with a giant 7.4liter International V8, maybe first in 84;
Chevy/GM with the 6,2 liter V8 and tha'sss zit.
99.9% with horrible auto-tragique slush boxes

My own Soooooper Bitchin van is a Chevy with 6.2 diesel and manual trans
3.42 axle AND overdrive..11l/100km empty cruise, 14.4l/100 km normal towing 105 km/hr cruise.

There were maybe a few thousand Iveco's sold as vans like MB 508, but here it is always Box truck like these lovely Isuzus


Or Misterbitchy:


Comfy seats, turbo diesels and jumpin Jehoshaphat some actually have nice 5 speed manuals...around 4 to 4,2 liter....geared and built like Gawd inteded but for actually haulin freight---instead of US junk which might haul a few saws and a couple of hammers...

Ahhhhh a wet dream.......4l turbo diesel, 5 speed manual room to convert the first 1/3 to sleeping and tea room....
Sigh.....

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Oh, yeah. My commutes from Stockholm to Bordeaux or Toulon
was about 2500km....one way. Then I might have 5-6 events in the next 4 weeks so I tried to stay down there for 2 months or so...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Cosworth
Now back on topic... I have a powerstroke van and its the BEST of all worlds. Economic ~14mph towing @75, big cargo area with shelves, compressor, etc..., its covered so in a pinch I can just throw parts and tools inside and lock it up and not worry about shit going bye bye. Its still nimble enough to get on a narrow stage and turn around after picking up the car.

Hey Paul,

You had better check out your brakes on the van; they were really a-smelling soemthing mighty strong once the van came up the mountain and over the ridge to get your car at RWV.

Mark B.

"First of all - do mean 1000 km one way, or 1000 km round trip?"

My closest rally is 65 km one way 'as the crow flies as we say', but it is about 160 km towing; imagine you are towing through the worst of the Black Forest and the Vosges' roads, over and over again.

Looking at John's map overlay, our average tow distaance would be from Berlin to the Riviera with distances of as much as to Berlin to Madrid. And we are in the central eastern part of the US so we have 'reasonable' tow distances.

"Anyway - I still feel that 6.5 litre turbo diesel is way overkill."

If you tow at 70-75 mph, you need POWER. The airflow eats up the power. You do it with a lot less power than 300 HP; we used to to with a non-turbo 6.2L Chevy and it would tow at 70 mph on the flat but with 4.11 gearing in the rear and wound up pretty tight for a diesel. It shotened the deisel life to do that. Get into the mountains, then we would have to slow down to 45 mph a lot of times, even interstates. So again, power. And you speak of a tow rig being unstable at high speeds with a light tow vehicle; that is very true. A big vehicle gives you stability at speed, but then the weight goes up and the power to drag it up a mountain goes up. And the size increase air resistance which also eats power.

And, I bet you use an aluminum trailer. the common trailers here are steel. Some are huge for rally; no way to get them into the woods to pick up a rally car.

And part of it is what you can get here. GM trucks basically had the 6.2L non-turbo V8 and went to the 6.5L turbo. Ford had the 7.3L V8 turbo International and then went to the 6.0L and the 6.4L. Dodge had the 5.9L turbo Cummins 6, and now have the 6.7L. (Lower compression for reduced NoX emissions + larger displacement). All else you can commonly get is the small Isuzu truck turbo that I can think of.

The best small tow setup that I have seen here in the US for Euro-like towing was Randy Zimmer towing his Subaru on a dolly with a Subaru wagon (with the 3.0 L, I think). Did OK.

And, BTW, I towed for 10+ years with no trailer; just flat towed the car. (RWD). Worked fine, stable, gas mileage was good (15-16 mpg with a 351C V8 Ranchero, and then 15 mpg with the 6.2L Chevy crew cab). Never had a problem getting back home, but then I don't often rip the wheels off.....The only problem with dollies and flat towing is that you only have the truck or car brakes, no trailer brakes to help. So you have to be careful in traffic and in the mountains.

So anyone starting to rally (and who is not a maniac bent on wining or destroying the car at every event) SHOULD look at tow dollies and flat towing as options. Both are very stable for towing in my experience.

And then there was the 1960 Ford horse truck named 'Tonka Angel' with the truck version of the old T-Bird 292 ci V8 and single master cylinder brakes....you should have seen people scrambling to get the hell out of the way when we came roaring down off the mountains in PA.....but that's another rally towing story......

Mark B.

Mark,

Thanks for keeping an eye out and helping the crew. Their first time and were "thrown into the wolves". The girl came as an observer for Valspar Paints, as they are gauging for marketing ops. It just wasnt so nice when the CRO went to tell them we were off and was flat out rude to them when they asked where at. He said: "You're the crew figure it out, you should have maps, I'm not here to help you". When we confronted him about it, he said it would never say that and that he wasnt the one that notified them and doesnt know who else would be notifying the DNF's.


The brakes on the van started giving me problems on the way there. Feels like its only 1 caliper doing the work and with the steep decline from snowshoe I'll be lucky if the pad backing plate didnt braze itself to the piston.

As for towing in europe, its so easy when your distances are just a couple of hours each way. When I first started we would drive the rally car to the events and back all in the same day sometimes. Then when we started feeling like pro's we either used my gradfathers pickup, which was an early 80's Datsun with a 2.2L diesel and 60hp and 100tq, or my friend's dad's Seat Terra, which I think it had the same engine as the Fiat 127... a 900cc and about ~40hp. And to be honest I dont think we ever lacked power, but we hardly ever took highways, and the roads there are narrow and twisty, so 30-80km average. Later on we actually started running serious we used what we thought it was a spaceship, my uncle's raceshop 1996 Sprinter. Good times!

Quote
starion887
The best small tow setup that I have seen here in the US for Euro-like towing was Randy Zimmer towing his Subaru on a dolly with a Subaru wagon (with the 3.0 L, I think). Did OK.

And, BTW, I towed for 10+ years with no trailer; just flat towed the car. (RWD). Worked fine, stable, gas mileage was good (15-16 mpg with a 351C V8 Ranchero, and then 15 mpg with the 6.2L Chevy crew cab). Never had a problem getting back home, but then I don't often rip the wheels off.....The only problem with dollies and flat towing is that you only have the truck or car brakes, no trailer brakes to help. So you have to be careful in traffic and in the mountains.

So anyone starting to rally (and who is not a maniac bent on wining or destroying the car at every event) SHOULD look at tow dollies and flat towing as options. Both are very stable for towing in my experience.

Mark B.

+1 on tow dollies. I ran two or three years on a dolly. My first year I towed with a V6 Tacoma. The biggest downside was sketchy braking and maneuverability. I think I screwed up a rear beam trying to back up w/ the car on the dolly.

If you do happen to screw up both ends at an event, you can pretty easily rent a U-Haul trailer one way to get home. I was lucky enough that the one time my car was too bent for the dolly, I was able to borrow a trailer from another competitor who lives 20 minutes away, and he used my dolly to get his car home.



Also, on brakes, one reason that US needs bigger vehicles is cars are rated less in the US than they are in Europe. Same vehicle, lower tow rating. And if you're unlucky enough to get in an accident and have exceeded the US tow rating...good luck.

well the reason i say 5K is my car is probably 2700 , and Toms trailer is 2K . i won't be buying a tow vehicle and trailer all at once. (baby steps) its cheaper to buy tom new trailer tires and brakes, than it is to buy a trailer .

300 lbs of spares is probably under estimating ...

what's the cheapest trailer setup that is going to be reliable ? guess i should jsut watch craigslist (once i have cash instead of debt) hehe

ya 5k isn't bad, esp with no car loans.. but its debt non the less

Quote
starion887
"Anyway - I still feel that 6.5 litre turbo diesel is way overkill."

If you tow at 70-75 mph, you need POWER

That may be the big issue combined with the elevations you guys have. The EU has harmonized speed limits for "heavy vehicles" (which means full size trucks AND cars/vans (defined as a car that has a total laden weight of 3500 kg) towing a trailer) that says maximum 80 kph anywhere... 70-75 mph is around the limit of most highways anywhere in the EU for cars unders 3500 total laden weight.

Quote

And, I bet you use an aluminum trailer. the common trailers here are steel. Some are huge for rally; no way to get them into the woods to pick up a rally car.

Nope... steel... you can get aluminium trailers, but they are way expensive and there isn't much of a market for it, since it's easy to get a "weight optimized" steel trailer.
But I think that another reason for the difference here, is that your trailers NEED to be big, to be able to handle a big American car. Since our cars generally are a bit smaller, the trailers can be smaller as well.

Even though many of you rally cars that we use in Europe as well, "trailer availability" may force you to chose a heavy trailer?

Quote

And, BTW, I towed for 10+ years with no trailer; just flat towed the car. (RWD). Worked fine, stable, gas mileage was good (15-16 mpg with a 351C V8 Ranchero, and then 15 mpg with the 6.2L Chevy crew cab). Never had a problem getting back home, but then I don't often rip the wheels off.....The only problem with dollies and flat towing is that you only have the truck or car brakes, no trailer brakes to help. So you have to be careful in traffic and in the mountains.

I "towed" by driving the car to +8-10 events a year for around 8 years - but it was never more than 50-60 kms one way - and the occasional once a year 150 km one way where I REALLY hoped to not get a defect .
I've had to tow the car back home on a rope a few times... the speed limit for that is 30 kph here ... that takes a while . But what you don't do for a bit of rally action

---

Brgrds
Brian