Lesson for today

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Cosworth
John, not sure what you're trying to say using that analogy but yes I also agree that people over here would only use 80% of the capacity of a WRC brake system. But the capacity of a rigid mount coleman disc and willwood caliper is less than 50% of a WRC system is.

As a test just for shits a giggles you should put a cut in one of those coleman discs after they've done a couple of hard heat cycles. They're cheap enough that the experiment wont bankrup anyone and only be an eye opener. Heck do it on a used one ready to be tossed if need be. The residual stress on the disc will make it "curl" and look like a big lock washer. All of that adds to possible vibration, but most of all drag and inconsistent performance from one pedal application to the other. Also the thermal capacity on those discs is pretty low and if it for a heavy car or heavy braking event bad things can happen.

As an example, look at Matt Johnson with Jeremy Wimpey in Oregon 2009, with cheap discs in his SP WRX, blew up a front left dics at 116mph, took out the wheel, the damper, the caliper, and only by luck he didnt total the car.

Now what I say is, that system is perfect for a Merkur because the 300mmx32mm discs are not going to be maxed out by that car's speed. But like I said before its not within 1% of the more expenssive stuff out there.

That exact system could be fitted with AP late model calipers (350 each) or PFC late model calipers (450), and AP or PFC late model discs 125-185 each also 300mmx32 with an 8 on 7" mount and have a REALLY good setup for a fraction of the cost of say an homologated kit and have similar capacity and reliability of the GrN system. Cheaper even if you bargained for a deal.

Holy crap. That was Olympus not Oregon and that video was ... Holy shit. The part where they fly into the control and weave through a bunch of cars and people was even scarier!

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john vanlandingham

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Cosworth
That whole brake system is a good club racer solution period. Calling it 1% hairspliting is a bit too optimistic eh John? Drop the propaganda and call it as it is 40 dollar discs from coleman wont last in the hands of a good driver doing actual top 3 stage times, thin walls like that, and the coning over from being a rigid mount to the hat will have a lot of distortion and bad drag. Inconsistent and long pedal from a flex-lite williwood caliper is far from confidence inspiring.

Lets use it as what it is, a good and affordable upgrade for the shitty brakes in older cars that will be more than enough for most of us. Not the top 3 guys though

What was the lesson in the first post afterall?

Paulinho, it IS hairsplitting 1%.
You really think anybody we are talking about can utilise brakes right to the Nth degree?
ANYBODY in North America?
I just looked at "the Rally Superstar' who on tarmac this weekend in Allemania---while I was off camping with wifey, her sister, and the three Girls----was losing ON AVERAGE the same time per stage, as the real drivers had as Total gap at end of the entire event.
It's tarmac, everybody has the same grip, same motor--(more or less), it comes down to the ONLY thing that really requires judgment: braking.
So, you think "our" Super Star is really using the brakes on that works Ford
that much better???

I don't.

My point has always been, always: good vigorous utilisation of what I call "pretty good stuff" and a "pretty good package" is a lot better ----and a lot more satisfying------than lame utilisation of "Super-trick" stuff.

But you did state that the components were as good (or close to) as the top cars. I'm pretty sure - from what I've seen you write on previous occasions - that you meant brakes that would be good ENOUGH to cope compared to the top cars (and more specifically the level that they were being driven at)...

But as an example we have here in Denmark, 4 Peugeot 207 S2000 works cars running in the Danish championship, along with a number of Evo's, Subie's, a Punto S2000, a bunch of works S1600 cars, Maxi's, etc. etc.
But we also have a guy in a mid-nineties Peugeot 106 phase 1 with the 1.6 16V engine in 106 Maxi trim, and a nice Sadev gearbox - and then no more trick parts - but the right parts - "good enough parts".
He's a lowly privateer - but he's mad... truly, utterly mad... behind the steering wheel...

Take a look at this link: http://www.rallyresult.dk/results.aspx?eventid=227
You'll have to look at the right table (the one under "Stilling efter prøve 12" - and look for the guy in 7th place - Benny Pedersen...

Or here: http://www.rallyresult.dk/results.aspx?eventid=222 - 7th OA again.

He even managed 4th overall of the Danes in the first rally of the Danish 2011 championship (which was part of a German rally), and managed 11th overall of all contestants (that is: including the Germans).

Now, he's up against not WRC drivers - but the Danish top drivers (basically the 207 guys ) do pretty good when they go outside Denmark - and he still manages to hang on. Why? Because he's VERY good at driving and using what he has. And does NOT have WRC-spec components... just "pretty damn good" (by our standards) - yet it makes all the difference that he's a devil behind the wheel.

What am I trying to say? Well... mostly that I don't think that the difference between "good enough" equipment and WRC-level equipment is plays that big a role - even for "fairly good" drivers... I seriously believe that maybe with the exception of Loeb, Ogier, Solberg, Latavala and a couple of others of the front runners, it's a matter of UTILIZING...

---

Brgrds
Brian

Quote
NoCoast

Quote
Cosworth
John, not sure what you're trying to say using that analogy but yes I also agree that people over here would only use 80% of the capacity of a WRC brake system. But the capacity of a rigid mount coleman disc and willwood caliper is less than 50% of a WRC system is.

As a test just for shits a giggles you should put a cut in one of those coleman discs after they've done a couple of hard heat cycles. They're cheap enough that the experiment wont bankrup anyone and only be an eye opener. Heck do it on a used one ready to be tossed if need be. The residual stress on the disc will make it "curl" and look like a big lock washer. All of that adds to possible vibration, but most of all drag and inconsistent performance from one pedal application to the other. Also the thermal capacity on those discs is pretty low and if it for a heavy car or heavy braking event bad things can happen.

As an example, look at Matt Johnson with Jeremy Wimpey in Oregon 2009, with cheap discs in his SP WRX, blew up a front left dics at 116mph, took out the wheel, the damper, the caliper, and only by luck he didnt total the car.

Now what I say is, that system is perfect for a Merkur because the 300mmx32mm discs are not going to be maxed out by that car's speed. But like I said before its not within 1% of the more expenssive stuff out there.

That exact system could be fitted with AP late model calipers (350 each) or PFC late model calipers (450), and AP or PFC late model discs 125-185 each also 300mmx32 with an 8 on 7" mount and have a REALLY good setup for a fraction of the cost of say an homologated kit and have similar capacity and reliability of the GrN system. Cheaper even if you bargained for a deal.

Holy crap. That was Olympus not Oregon and that video was ... Holy shit. The part where they fly into the control and weave through a bunch of cars and people was even scarier!

Linky?

Never realized how much a pita converting rear brakes was.

We were talking about it last night and Matthew hasn't a clue where any of his in-car is but he does know where the Mexico flying into a crowd of spectators and folding chairs after losing brakes is and is going to try to get that posted someday.

I've got a pair of extractors. I think I'm going to refurbish them, or try & get one signed.

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Sean Edwards
I've got a pair of extractors. I think I'm going to refurbish them, or try & get one signed.

Got any pics of the backsides of those things? Just curious what they look like.

Yup.



I found these for sale today in Poland. For some reason I don't get return emails when I inquire from America.

17 x 8 tarmac wheels and the fronts are pre drilled for the discs.

So, JVL, you gonna be avail this weekend? I have a steering shaft i need to get a cog off.

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Racinkid13
So, JVL, you gonna be avail this weekend? I have a steering shaft i need to get a cog off.

Maybe, or evenings work too. Youse only 15 minutes away when the traffic is died down.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

mmkay. might be able to swing wed. im POA of my 96 y/o grandfather and he is going downhill quick. so, if he has a good day im free.