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fliz
Thinking the logbook will have ALL incidents reported is naive.

Agreed. But if you can't even be certain the incidents that have happened at sanctioned events are included then why even bother.

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john vanlandingham
Another post I agree with fully...

I've said before that we actually agree more than you'd like to think. From my perspective, at least some of the pissing matches we've had have centered around semantics rather than fundamentals.
(I suspect, however, you won't agree with me on this)

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Morison
An probably more a question of where you want the time and money invested in what are, for the most part, volunteer run associations with modest budgets.

way before online Logbooks.... is online entries, ONLINE entries, and oh yeah ONLINE ENTRIES

There is no reason why in 2011, i need to mail a cheque, to enter an event. Just 2 weeks ago i had to search far and wide for my cheque book....shortly followed by searching for a stamp.

Also filling out the same info on every entry form I do.

Would much rather go online, click Register, say i'm driving, so and so is co-driving, and were driving a Subaru, and i'm paying by CC. Entry done.

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Do It Sidewayz
way before online Logbooks.... is online entries, ONLINE entries, and oh yeah ONLINE ENTRIES

From what I've heard, CARS is close to that as well as close to online licensing. Don't ask me to define 'close.'

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Do It Sidewayz

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Morison
An probably more a question of where you want the time and money invested in what are, for the most part, volunteer run associations with modest budgets.

way before online Logbooks.... is online entries, ONLINE entries, and oh yeah ONLINE ENTRIES

There is no reason why in 2011, i need to mail a cheque, to enter an event. Just 2 weeks ago i had to search far and wide for my cheque book....shortly followed by searching for a stamp.

Also filling out the same info on every entry form I do.

Would much rather go online, click Register, say i'm driving, so and so is co-driving, and were driving a Subaru, and i'm paying by CC. Entry done.

apparently we are spoiled in the SouthWest. With only a few exceptions, all event registrations are done online. PayPal or check via snail mail are optional.

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Do It Sidewayz


There is no reason why in 2011, i need to mail a cheque, to enter an event. Just 2 weeks ago i had to search far and wide for my cheque book....shortly followed by searching for a stamp.

WTF???? What's a stamp? *confused*

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Morison

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fliz
Thinking the logbook will have ALL incidents reported is naive.

Agreed. But if you can't even be certain the incidents that have happened at sanctioned events are included then why even bother.

But the point is, if you believe the competitor won't record damage in their logbook after an event, then you have to believe they could practically destroy the car between events and never tell anybody. Which means no matter WHAT the logbook says, you have to thoroughly inspect the cage and shell for damage or inadequate repairs.

Also, does CARS do Parc Ferme after every event? Last year I damaged my main hoop on a stump on the last stage. I didn't lose much time, and still finished the event first in class. Would CARS have done a post-event inspection and noted in my logbook?
When I ran Rally WV, NASA kept my logbook, but there was no Parc Ferme after the event, and logbooks were returned to finishers w/o any inspection.

With the database, unless you plan on using it in lieu of tech, and trusting that competitors haven't swapped belts/extinguishers between events, it doesn't save any time in tech, it just adds time recording the relevant data. And given a majority of competitors enter one event or less every year, the value of the database diminishes even more.

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fliz
But the point is, if you believe the competitor won't record damage in their logbook after an event, then you have to believe they could practically destroy the car between events and never tell anybody. Which means no matter WHAT the logbook says, you have to thoroughly inspect the cage and shell for damage or inadequate repairs.

I never suggested that electronic logbooks would replace tech inspection or make it quicker. All it really does is eliminate the 'forgotten' logbooks that contain issues that haven't been properly addressed yet.

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Also, does CARS do Parc Ferme after every event?

Nope. Nationals, most of the time but post event inspections are rare. A car finishing with damage would likely get looked at and noted, but no guarantee.

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And given a majority of competitors enter one event or less every year, the value of the database diminishes even more.

I don't see that as a given. Participation rates I've seen in Canada are quite a bit higher than that.

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Morison

I don't see that as a given. Participation rates I've seen in Canada are quite a bit higher than that.

I believe it was Anders who had done the analysis and posted % of drivers and # of events each year...but I can't find it now. I'm not sure if he included Canada in his analysis.


EDIT: Found it...I guess I overstated it, and it was just US.

http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showthread.php?43800-what-is-the-US-rally-missing&p=391273#post391273

40% do only one event a year, 22% do two events, 13% do 3 events.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2011 05:30PM by fliz.

The next question that comes out of that is how 'competitor' is defined.

Stats can say a lot of things depending on how you juggle them. I haven't seen a similar study for Canada but admit that participation is probably lower than I think it is. I KNOW we have people paying good money for competition licenses and not using them... which I find really odd.

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Morison
i wonder if anyone has thought of moving to an electronic logbook where a barcode on the cage/shell is scanned and brings up the car information on a database. The car is scanned at tech and the event data is entered, results are automatically appended by the database at the end of the event and DNF/damage details are added by the stewards after the event. (you could easily append pictures of damage etc.)

You'd need internet connectivity at tech though.

Yes. Someone has. Android snaps photo of 2D barcode, looks up car in database...hey presto. Since I already have android connectivity to the CRS's online membership/signup database, it was pretty easy.

Problem was mostly trying to figure out how to add the post-event inspection to workers' already taxed schedules.

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Morison

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john vanlandingham
Another post I agree with fully...

I've said before that we actually agree more than you'd like to think. From my perspective, at least some of the pissing matches we've had have centered around semantics rather than fundamentals.
(I suspect, however, you won't agree with me on this)

Well possibly. Although I take the word semantics as one of those words which are loaded to overfilling with implications.
See I maintain that speaking is one thing, and writing is another and generally more precise.
That's the reason I try to write in a close approximation of how I speak so that the INTENT, a loose , often joking, a shade poking fun---not really mean sarcastic but always fairly tongue in cheek tone is understood...

I know many "get it", because they don't doubt the intent and the desires behind the words... (I'll say it again same as I said since the night after Wild West 1984: I wanna see 150 car entries---then occasionally I can sell a motor or suspension or a widget at a decent businesslike mark up instead of giving EVERYBODY "best buddy deals".)(and have been working as hard as I know how since that first event to see that happen.)

But "semantics" as used in a conversational way in current North American English, well I don't know if that's the only difference.
When I think of semantics well wiki says it well:
Semantics (from Greek semantika, neuter plural of semantikos)[1][2] is the study of meaning. It focuses on the relation between signifiers, such as words, phrases, signs and symbols, and what they stand for, their denotata.

See I'm not sure often what people "mean" with their words so I ask, and ask pointedly sometimes. maybe it's because I didn't speak English till later and was surrounded by Spanish, and then Italian and Pork-n-cheese all while home till I moved to Sweden at 17 and then emigrated for real at 19.
And then in my 20s spent 2 seasons submerged in France---and often in the German State of Hesse for naughty unspeakable activities with various nubile German girls..
And it only got worse.

So to me semantics used as I believe most use it implies "unimportant bagatelles " , trifles of word choice not worth thinking of...

And that's not what I think of 'semantics".

So, as often is the case, I don't know what you mean by "semantics".
Because we speak different languages...

It may be that we both have a strong desire to see a healthy, vibrant, sustainable rally "world' on this Continent, that general idea may be held in common, but I do believe that we differ strongly how the sustainability part can be best accomplished.

And I believe that the sustainability part is the only hope there is..

"Next year in Jerusalem"

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

OK either you're frickin hilarious or a jackass... I'll give you the benefit of doubt on this one.


Note: From oh so slightly further down the wikipedia page:
[Semantics] It is often used in ordinary language to denote a problem of understanding that comes down to word selection or connotation.

I think what I have heard mostly, and from the 4 continents where I have spent time is I am hilarious... and the more widely read, and more languages spoken, the funnier it gets. Pretty funny when I think of myself as careful and serious.

I just don't get paid enough to act serious.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

In road racing,you just bring your safety equipment and log book to tech. If the last race inspection page is clean and all the safety stuff is good, you pass.

If you crash, every single piece of damaged race car is noted in the log book, and at the next event you show up at, expect a Spanish Inquisition before the car passes tech.

At most rallys the Tech Inspectors are friends with the entrants, and no event these days wants to give back an event entry fee, so a lot of marginal cars pass tech. Look at all the guys who got bounced out of tech at WRC Mexico over cage welding who had log books and ran for a few years.

There's a lot of rally cars in this country I wouldn't go to the 7-11 in to get a Slurpee, let alone run a rally.

Just sayin'.

Sean Gallagher

---

2WD...Less Traction More Action!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2011 01:49AM by stgallagher.