Is Rallying in trouble in the US?

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Anders Green

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fliz
Seats expire, belts expire...why would a HANS which is carbon/fiberglass like seats, and webbing like harnesses NOT expire?

The party line has always been that UV is the worst enemy of harnesses, and since you couldn't guarantee that cars were stored inside, you had to assume that the sunlight had been damaging the webbing all those years.

As an exercise for the reader, I leave it to you to imagine how many HANS devices are left in the sun for five years or stored outside.

Anders

Thank gawd that evil UV is defeated by the mighty UV defeating belts in my 1969 Saab! Still going strong!

Then again the Federales aren't the ones selling the belts.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I've always stored my rally car outside, For the first time in my life i actually have a garage, have to finish "moving in" to free up the 2nd bay. GF is grabbing the open spot for now..

i actually typically have kept my HANS (hutchins) in a closet so i'm pretty safe from UV there. though at times the hans sits in my rally car.

....

ya it is rather odd that a 2" , 3 point belt can be fine for 50 years , but a 3" 5 point expires in 2 ... I think there's legitimacy that the belts weaken with UV, weaken enough that you are no longer safe in a worse case crash that you are okay with new belts... I dunno ... I dunno ...

but fortunately for me others are making that call for me. hehehe

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john vanlandingham
Thank gawd that evil UV is defeated by the mighty UV defeating belts in my 1969 Saab! Still going strong!

When is the last time your '69 seat belts were tested?

I can't find them now, but when this topic came up years ago, I had a couple of studies on seat belt performance over time. One was for the type of nylon typically used in racing harnesses and the other was for normal road car seat belts. The drop-off in strength over time was pretty dramatic.

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Then again the Federales aren't the ones selling the belts.

You mean the same Federales that don't want me driving my German market '97 Lotus Elise in the US, but had no problem with me driving my infinitely less safe and much dirtier (as far as emissions) '73 Europa (my daily driver when I lived in the Bay Area).

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards almost always look at the present and the future; they don't look back.

alan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2011 12:42PM by tipo158.

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tipo158

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john vanlandingham
Thank gawd that evil UV is defeated by the mighty UV defeating belts in my 1969 Saab! Still going strong!

When is the last time your '69 seat belts were tested?

I can't find them now, but when this topic came up years ago, I had a couple of studies on seat belt performance over time. One was for the type of nylon typically used in racing harnesses and the other was for normal road car seat belts. The drop-off in strength over time was pretty dramatic.

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Then again the Federales aren't the ones selling the belts.

You mean the same Federales that don't want me driving my German market '97 Lotus Elise in the US, but had no problem with me driving my infinitely less safe and much dirtier (as far as emissions) '73 Europa (my daily driver when I lived in the Bay Area).

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Safety almost alway look at the present and the future; they don't look back.

alan

The alleged difference is the race harness aren't soaked in anti-oxidants..

The other question of drastic deterioration of STRENGTH (not fraying and cuts , ) merely due to age and UV "damage':

name 2 people killed or injured cause their otherwise fine old OEM belts failed from UV.


It stretches credulity that there isd some significant difference in materials, construction, aging between OEM car stuff and thicker, wider,harnesses.


In this sue-happy country, don't you think that the door to billions in litigation would be left open if there was credible evidence of belts going to shit in just a couple of years?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
The alleged difference is the race harness aren't soaked in anti-oxidants..

"alleged difference" between race harnesses and what? Not sure what you are saying here.

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The other question of drastic deterioration of STRENGTH (not fraying and cuts , ) merely due to age and UV "damage':

name 2 people killed or injured cause their otherwise fine old OEM belts failed from UV.

I can't even find the studies that I had a few years ago (hope that they are on a backup somewhere) ...

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It stretches credulity that there isd some significant difference in materials, construction, aging between OEM car stuff and thicker, wider,harnesses.

Until the mid-2000s, racing harnesses were mostly made from nylon and road cars went from nylon to polyester in the 1970s. There are significant differences between nylon and polyester.

Below, Gene wrote:

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I don't know the difference between auto and racing belts as to material and specifications but auto belts rarely fade and racing belts fade dramatically in a couple years.

UV resistance is one of the reasons that road car makers went to polyester seat belts.

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In this sue-happy country, don't you think that the door to billions in litigation would be left open if there was credible evidence of belts going to shit in just a couple of years?

Good question, though I didn't say that they went to shit. Sorry that I can't find the studies so that I could quote a real number.

alan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2011 01:06PM by tipo158.

In 2003 I hit the wall almost head on at over 125mph at Winchester speedway. ( the true worlds fastest half mile) After the wreck my Hans had hair line cracks about half way up. Im sure it saved my life but im not sure it would a second time. To be honest I still race with the same Hans. I talked about sending it back in the off season but I never did. I think this is a good rule.

I don't know the difference between auto and racing belts as to material and specifications but auto belts rarely fade and racing belts fade dramatically in a couple years. Many Asian cars have somewhat of a lifetime guarantee on their passenger car belts. Honda has had quite an issue with belts fraying. I've seen some with literally 1/2 the width gone. Others, like Mitsu, have had lots of clasp issues and replacement kits were available. Ford has latch problems that aren't being covered. I just spent $120 to get one side of the drivers lap belt for my 100k mile pickup.

Many people leave there rally cars outside in the weather year 'round. They typically leak. The belts get wet, moldy, sun bleached and did anyone ever consider how much damage is done to the material from the constant abrasion of both hardware and dust? Grab a hand ful of dirt and rub it hard on your arm for a couple minutes. I'm not convinced either way on the 2 year deal, but 5 years seems like a good time to have 'unused' safety equipment checked. Used safety equipment should be looked at very carefully after every off or roll and if needed replaced or sent off for recertification. We need to keep better track of that stuff and log books....

HNRs have small rivets, thin straps, buckles, latches.. all manner of bits and pieces than can wear or fail so on one hand I can see getting someone more qualified than myself or Alan to look at them once in a while. The cost is very small unless the unit is damaged. IF on the other hand either the manufacturer or SFI needs a small boost in revenue in these trying time, well I guess that is ok too. Look at what the banks are doing with account and debit card fees.

I'd guess SFI , while well intentioned, has to worry about generating revenue as well as liability. I'm sure Snell has likely reached a limit on the strength of material and design that is currently used. They must keep upping the standard or who needs them? The revenue is likely pretty big from getting the helmet tested and certified, probably not so big from the actual sticker. We could in theory just require competitors to replace a SA2005 standard every 5 or 10 years with a like helmet or get it recertified. I don't think belts are any better designed every 5 years, just new material. Helmets should be the same until a new material so overwhelminging better comes along...and we see a need for such an improvement.

Just in case people (wearing glasses or not) can't see the writing on the wall....rally is going the way of quilting bees, barn raisings and ho downs ( Grant is now looking around to see where ). Although with the continued economy some of those activites may see a resurgance. Get the F'n car finished, get on stage or you may never have a chance to experience rally.

If your name is on the bottom of the paper as an organizer, sanctioning body, land owner or even safety equipment manufacturer you need to be worried about liability. Concern isn't weakness, greed or stupidity. "We" generated and allow this society. Blaming or pooh poohing someone over being worried about being sued isn't realistic or remotely fair.

rally will find a way. i mean what else would we do? Autocross? No thanks

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Gravity Fed
rally will find a way. i mean what else would we do? Autocross? No thanks

I spent this year doing road racing and time attack events. While fun, they definitely do not replace sideways on gravel at 80+mph over a jump, even as a co-driver I don't do auto-x or even rally-x anymore, since each outing costs me at least $100, that's minimum 1/15 of the total cost of a regional rally (gotta save that money up)!

I come from a drag racing background, and that sport is in the same boat. It's just the economy as stated previously. I sold my last car this last spring that had about $40,000 invested into it for a little over .25 on the dollar.






In January of 2007 we opened a shop about a mile from Rt. 66 Raceway in Joliet, IL. For the first 6 months or so we did great. Then the economy really took a dump mid-late 07...After that it was dead. When racing is your hobby and you suddenly lose your job or take a big pay cut, the race car is the first thing to go on the back-burner. We ended up closing in Jan of 09.

If it makes you guys feel any better, I plan on building a group 2 car to compete in a few RA regional races in 2013.(I figure it'll take most of 2012 to get the car together and ready to go)

Hey, who are you? This forum has very few rules, but putting a name and location in your profile is one of them! Thanks!

http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/read.php?8,41104

A group 2 car sounds cool! Even cooler if it's rear drive!

pff....rules...





I'm sticking with what I'm already famililar with. RWD furd.

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b00sted
pff....rules...






I'm sticking with what I'm already famililar with. RWD furd.

I'm pretty sure you're now in full rules compliance!

If you're in Chicago land, you need to go over to Merkur Parts Midwest and get yourself a cheap to free XR4Ti shell or two from Jeff Herson, cage it, then stuff a nasty 2.3 NA motor in it for group 2 (Duratec or Lima).

Muhahhahahaha! OK, you can Moose-angst if you must, but I think a Crown Victoria would be cooler!

A guy I know had a Merk with a nice little turbo 2.3 in it years ago...It was a pretty cool car.

I'm kind of a Mustang guy though...If I can find a decently cheap 79-93 roller to start with, I'd prefer to go that route. The 03/04 cobra guys like to pull out their IRS in favor of a straight axle for drag racing...I think it would be pretty cool to stick the IRS in a fox with some upgraded axles...It's almost a direct bolt-in, no crazy custom fabrication necessary.


As for the 2.3, I've already been on Esslinger's site doing a bunch of dreaming/window-shopping.

This is a pretty cool sport...Where a Mustang is actually considered rare. Everyone and their grandmother drag races Mustangs.