Is Rallying in trouble in the US?

I'll vote Yes.
The least expensive way to enter the competition side of the sport is as a Co-driver. Three years or so after the introduction of the H&N requirement you still have people who want to co-drive looking to borrow Helmets, Suits and H&N. In all forms of motorsport you need to put forth an investment for any kind of success
There's always drivers on SS looking for a Co-driver, and they can't run by themselves.
It's not that difficult to Co-drive. If I've been able to do it as long as I have, anybody can do it. Total dollar out lay for all equipment and a license is around $1600.00. Not a lot of money in the big picture compared to a driver's out lay.
If the low dollar entry to the sport is having trouble, the high dollar route is even harder hit.

Sean Gallagher

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2WD...Less Traction More Action!

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Doorman
Hey Grant, you thinking a series based on Focus's or something else you can buy for a reasonable price? I've been researching them for rally parts/prep and I'd still have to fork over 10-15k just in getting it rally ready (plus the car price). How the hell do we get costs down w/o sacrificing safety and "decent" performance? A car for under $10k rally ready would be better... Then I'd have to move to Colorado!?!

I can't speak to everything that Grant's been kicking around, but the two of us have been discussing the BMW E36 platform. My car has been a bit of a test bed, though admittely I've gone well over the $10k budget (M3 engine, full exhaust, tuneable chip, fancy pedals, stainless lines, E46 front arms & big angle kit, Z3 steering rack, Racetech seats, supra diff, Compomotive wheels, etc etc.). We're trying to learn as much as possible on my car (i.e. break things) so that if we start putting other cars together, we'll have a better idea of where to direct the money. There were some parts I bought because of perceived problems, but could've just as easily done without. Live & learn I guess.

I've worked with JVAB to dial in some pretty damn good suspension for the hatchback, but the sedan/coupe have a different rear end, so that might entail a bit of testing. There's lots of places I could've skipped adding parts and/or fabricating that wouldn't have sacrificed the fun factor of the car.

6-cyl BMWs can be found in running or near running condition locally (rust free!) for $2k and under and you might be able to make a few bucks selling off interior bits. They're not rocket ships, but with ~200hp, plenty of torques and RWD they just might work. The road race guys have Spec3, so there might be some info to dig up to find ways to equalize the different engines offered.

IMO, part of the reason true spec series are tough to get started is that everyone wants to personalize their car or do something different or they've already got XYZ parts. MacGuyver'ing things is the rally way, so unless there's some big carrot dangled (WRC event entry?!?), we may just have to settle for 'pretty close' and call it good. Saving $40k on a build should leave a little money to go enter some events.

Dave

I plan to do cage kits for 4 and 2 door GC Imprezas and E36 BMWs with the latter being the ideal multi-level spec series and the engine stock has enough power to be fun and there is a LSD and decent ratios available stock or on the Compact models Dave's already shown that even a cubicle queen can get the 8" Supra diff into the STA rear suspension.
I plan to buy a 325 with the multi-link in the near future. Found ones that needed a little work for as low as $700 and really nice ones in the 1500-2000 range.
If you cannot afford a $10k rally car or if a $2k shell is too much for you you are in the wrong sport and should look at dirt bikes for now.
$10k is cage, seats, skid plates, fire extinguishers, suspension (JVAB or similar), and brake pads. Car is otherwise completely stock. There are a few things we need to figure out before then. Such as a solution to the front suspension geometry without going to custom or E46 arms to get rid of the positive camber resulting from increased ride height. Probably just a modified strut top will achieve that. And there is the whole rear multi-link that needs tested to determine weaknesses and such things. They are being used successfully though in Finland, Ireland, Germany, and many other countries.
I have three shells that I am hoping to pick up in the coming months. The owners are parting the cars and I have asked them for just the shell. Idea is that we'll have a $3k option that is just a caged shell with title and we'll have one or two of these ready to go. That way if you roll a car you just buy a new shell then get to work swapping stuff over.
I have no interest in FWD stuff. If you've never rode in or drove a 250-300 hp RWD rally car you won't understand.
Dave. We have scales so we can always do weight tables to account for the different engines 2.5-3.2L though it'd likely handicap the 3.0 and 3.2L people. Probably better would be to have a 2.5-2.8 class and 3.0-3.2 class. Of course, we need 20 people rallying to get there.
But how many of our rallying friends can you think of that would be able to build/afford a car for this? Scott L, Todd, Aaron, Steve, McGuire (E30?), Brooks, me, you, Tom K, Tom W, Moody, Schmidt, Short, Malsom (once he graduates in Spring), Helton, Carpenter, O'Driscoll, Patik, Mitch, and more. Not to mention the guys who want to rally but think it's too expensive or all the rallycross guys (I think they're drawing 100+ or close to it at SCCA events in CORX program) who want to step up to something faster but not sure where to start. Anyhow, back to eQTL.

I think the Blue Subaru effect is very real too...

Whenever I'm spectating, friends spend more time checking out the front-runner cars, while I spend my whole time checking out the rattiest, nastiest things, trying to figure out what they did to "make it work".

I built the Justy and was on stage the first year for...

2400 bucks.

The car was free.

The cage cost almost everything (1600), and we ran basically stock. This was the beauty of production classes.

However, while we finished, we also dnf'd a few due to a poor prep and some production issues, but most of it was poor prep. Knowing what I know now, I could have done the same car, better level of prep, and been on stage for 2400 bucks (okay need H&N now so add that in...). I just needed a less rusty car to start.

Cars can be built dirt cheap, and the reason I lurk here is I do believe in the RWD, build it simple mantra. I just started with the wrong car, but there are benefits to it including the low weight and marginal power to 4 wheels driven that means we don't eat tires (or brakes, or suspension, or fuel, or towing fuel, or, or, or)

A spec class would fly in many ways, but you need the right support, the right environment, and the right car. For whatever reason, so many people gravitate to the big buck machines, and fail to see what light weight, underpowered cars can provide for a bangs for bucks ratio.

I'm sure every organizer has tried in their right way to promote the back of the pack cars, but maybe this is where the issue lies. Not enough spotlight put on the low budget teams. We get a few Peter K's running up front in the Swifts, but otherwise even at the events, there is little attention paid to the entry level (let alone in following write-ups).

Gone are the days of flogging it in the bush with a basic street car yes, but does that mean the entry into the sport has to be a winning entry? Find a car that can be fun at a minimum level of prep, make it safe, and go beat it.

I agree competition is at the heart of it, and you need to have some motivation to "do well". But in the end how many of us want to "win" vs getting to really be a hoon in the dirt? And while I don't think we need umpteen classes so we can all win, knowing what you are competing against can help keep the $$$ bar at a reasonable level. Having a Low $ spec class that some aspiring rallist can say "man I could build that, and that would be fun" might be a way forward.

Promoting the fools who are doing it in low spec cars might be a big help too. We're sorta preaching to the masses here, but how do we get the word out to the flat billers (are they a dying breed, is that over? I don't see that hat so much...) that they don't need to have it all to have some fun.

My 2 canadian cents.

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NoCoast
If you cannot afford a $10k rally car or if a $2k shell is too much for you you are in the wrong sport and should look at dirt bikes for now.

Is there a problem with buying a used rallycar? I know quite a few people who went the used route, and were on stage for $5k (including having to buy FIA seats). I also know that $5k gets me into a stage ready car that can then use the other $5k to go to 3 events (and afford a set of new gravel tires)! It's a big difference IMO, and is what has kept me out of the driver's seat for so long. This whole spec series thing always comes up, but I still can hardly see how LIMITING choice is the answer if you want MORE people. I'd say that it'd make more sense to tell people to find free/near free drivable cars that are known to be "ok" and go from there. Almost anything without rust can be rallied, and as stated elsewhere, the competition in NA is not bleeding edge enough to require many restrictions on equipment.

It would be way cool if there was a compiled list somewhere of dormant rally cars and their owners names... there is another 323GTX out east that someone posted in the for sale section for $2700(?), I don't know why somebody wouldn't scoop it up.

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There must be a couple hundred rally cars with grandfathered logbooks sitting stagnant in garages across the country. Why are we seeing more of these hitting the market so new folks can a get started?

I think if the people were bugged, they may be more willing to sell the car (and if there was a list with contact info, more people could bug them)

To Matt, I think the number one issue is that the new people need direct exposure (being in the car) vs indirect exposure (spectating) when it comes to slower cars. People are really bad when it comes to judging how fast a car is actually moving. 40mph might look dead slow outside of a fwd car in the mud, but inside it could be a nightmare.

I know with the Mike's Talon I'm picking up, I already have a dozen people lined up to go for rides on our next test day. People who have never been to any sort of racing event, but understand that they'll get to be sideways at high speeds on gravel (most Albertan's can still relate to that )

The WORST thing you could do is put these people in a mediocre driver's car. That would be a disaster.

Also throwing in my 2 pennies.

A spec car will never fly. Used cars, old cars are just that. No manufacture support, no reason to do it. A spec class already exists, several do, G2, G5, Open Lite.

People watch the front leaders because they are fast, not because they are in a Bluebaru. People don't watch the back markers because they aren't fast. Pretty simple. Fast guys in 2WD, either platform, do get noticed. If everyone was in identicle spec cars, then the fast guys will still stand out and the guys with bank rolls will still be consistantly finishing high. You simply cannot legislate talent or money. The slow guys still won't get noticed. In fact it will more obvious as everyone will know the reason for the slowness...

There is no magic bullet here. People need to quit worrying about how much so and so makes or spends. If you are rallying for any other reason than the pure joy of going fast down gravel (or tarmac) roads, then you are in the wrong sport. Life is like that. There is always someone faster, richer, better looking, cuter wife, smarter kids.

Rally is a fringe sport, always has been. Just like hanging from the rafters with meat hooks in your shoulder blades..it ain't for everybody. 2WD isn't the answer, nor is RWD. When all cars were RWD there were still 3 fast guys, 2 semi-fast guys and 20 also rans. That's why they had several different regional drivers classes, 1,2, 3 and novice. That didn't fluff people enough, so they mixed in car classes also. More fluff. Everyone gets a gold star. Guess maybe we need to do the Tball thing and no scores. It is what it is. Enjoy it while it lasts for what you get out of it, fame, fortune, recognition will have to come from somewhere else.

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HiTempguy
Is there a problem with buying a used rallycar? I know quite a few people who went the used route, and were on stage for $5k (including having to buy FIA seats). I also know that $5k gets me into a stage ready car that can then use the other $5k to go to 3 events (and afford a set of new gravel tires)!

Oh man. How to respond to this succinctly...
1. Used cars: Most of the used cars out there are the wrong car. In fact, that's the problem in the US, most of the rally cars are the wrong car. They are built for reasons that are not logical but usually due to some absurb emotional attachment to a particular brand.
Let's look at the ads from September on Specialstage.
We have two cars (Shadow and GTI) that likely need just as much updating and work as if you started from scratch. We have four cars that require huge money to maintain and operate (Evo 8 X 2, Escort Cossie, Open STI.) We have a $25k Group 5 car that has a custom dogbox and a bunch of other uber-expensive goodies yet still has less power than a stock M3 BMW and no mention of diff or final drive and everything in the drivetrain will be super expensive. We have the Focus which comes with all it's negatives from lack of drivetrain components to heavy weight and lastly, we have an Open Light Impreza. About the only car on the whole list I'd consider as one worth even considering buying if you happen to live in the PNW or east coast where there's some other OL cars to compete against.

2. The market for used rally cars makes no sense. It's like reverse of supply and demand. The supply is not there and the demand that exists only wants a super good deal. That's because deals exist out there because someone is ready to get out or needs money. The only ones that don't end up selling for pennies on the dollar are to people who are in that 1% or have the credit line to pretend so, and in my observational experience those people do not last and are really not that valuable to the sport and continue on the cycle.

So yeah, you can find deals here and there. Sometimes they even work out good. That Talon was a good deal moreso thanks to Gene's personal knowledge of the car. Is it a good rally car? Sure. Is it an ideal rally car? Only when there were no Subarus or Evos and people HAD to have AWD. Bring it out to a competitive event and it'll get beat by money all day long. You may be okay with just driving it to have fun, but I'm not looking to build a sport that's just about having fun and I have that drive to win and not have had bought the win with the ability to drop a car and a blank check to Rocket or Cascade in order to get there.

So, I suppose what I am saying is, I am approaching this with logic. I do not care what any other person, region, or championship's approach is. This is how I am formulating my own efforts to locally grow a series that is sustainable.

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HiTempguy
This whole spec series thing always comes up, but I still can hardly see how LIMITING choice is the answer if you want MORE people. I'd say that it'd make more sense to tell people to find free/near free drivable cars that are known to be "ok" and go from there. Almost anything without rust can be rallied, and as stated elsewhere, the competition in NA is not bleeding edge enough to require many restrictions on equipment.

I don't want more people. I want people to return. I want people to not leave. So I guess what I'm saying is I want more quality not quantity. I don't want people who think they are going to start rallying, start their own race team and suddenly be able to go rallying or even driving for their career. I want people that love to drive at speed, are perfectly content with their career choice, that want to go rally and have some fun and healthy competition with friends in similar cars.
And I don't want them in a bunch of shit cars that they will get tired of and decide they are bored with the battle for 6th place because the top 5 all are in a money spending competition 'raising' the bar. Trust me, I've personally seen it happen. I don't want someone stuck in some shit Focus that can't compete with the closer ratio gearing, higher and cheaper HP, and lighter weight of Dave's car without spending a shit ton of money getting a turbocharger setup, which costs them twice as much as they'd originally thought, keeps them out of the car for over a year, then just becomes a headache when they have trouble getting a decent tune or keeping half shafts together or keeping gearboxes together or or or...

That was not very succinct. And sorry if I offended anyone by calling their choice of a rally car a poor decision or even worse, your rally car a shit car. Don't take it personally, I've had poor choices of rally cars and my car is shit also. They all are ultimately, it's like John says, may as well start with one that's a little less shitty.

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heymagic
A spec car will never fly. Used cars, old cars are just that. No manufacture support, no reason to do it. A spec class already exists, several do, G2, G5, Open Lite.

Enjoy it while it lasts for what you get out of it, fame, fortune, recognition will have to come from somewhere else.

The problem is every real effort at a spec class has been focused on getting a manufacturer involved with a car that is wrong for the needs of the potential client base. Always too expensive.

That last sentence is possibly the most appropriate statement in years...

Someone asked are all the used cars bad?

I have driven a lot of cars on dirt related to helping teach at Paul's rally school and being a bit older, involved in this sport since days long ago (1970's)

The only cars that were not fun, underpowered AWD- everything else is a hoot and I am willing to flog any of them right now down a dirt road with a smile on my face.

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derek
Someone asked are all the used cars bad?

I have driven a lot of cars on dirt related to helping teach at Paul's rally school and being a bit older, involved in this sport since days long ago (1970's)

The only cars that were not fun, underpowered AWD- everything else is a hoot and I am willing to flog any of them right now down a dirt road with a smile on my face.

Of course.
Beating on ANYTHING is fun.

But what happens if somebody wants to do better?

Just cause a car works well doesn't mean its not fun.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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NoCoast
*snip*

Interesting. I fundamentally disagree with you on a few points (but this topic would get out of hand... ah screw it, I'm bored at work and head to PFR tomorrow, might as well stir things up a bit), but as you pointed out (I think we've had a similiar discussion on that other forum), you are trying to do it for your region. What your region requires for growth/sustainability/whatever most definitely can be different from what others do.

Here goes (and I surely won't be anywhere close to succinct):

I don't think anyone would take offense to what you said about their car (or say, the Talon I am buying). People might take offense when I say the skill levels of most rallyists in North America is appalling (and only in the past two years has it become better in Canada), which is why it doesn't really matter what vehicle you drive IMO, which is why I disagree with you. You'll still gain valuable experience running the wrong equipment (as bad as that sounds)! I'd rather see someone out on stage, gaining car control experience, compared to never starting. Starting is the hardest part in this whole mess, and the initial buy-in at $10k (for instance) is a real roadblock. You even ran the numbers yourself in a previous post. But I see where our viewpoints may diverge over quantity vs quality. I don't know if you can sustain NA rally on quality... I'm a car enthusiast through and through, I work on my own vehicles and have what I'd like to think is a lot of knowledge about cars in general. And in my opinion, I'm not that great of a car enthusiast. But then I look for other people in my area that would qualify as such, and the number of quality individuals rapidly approaches zero.

Further to my talent assessment, as of last year, in the right hands, Mike's Talon could easily have won events in the WCRC (wonder what Keith has to say about that ). Hell, we came within one stage of winning Big White, AND IT WAS THE DRIVERS FIRST PERFORMANCE DRIVING EVENT EVER in a bottom of the barrel, base PGT WRX with a welded rear diff running 91 octane. And all of the "fast guys" were there (how I wish Norm still competed ). It will be interesting to see how he does on gravel at PFR. I'm confident he will be surprising to many people.

Many people thought it was so "cool" to see the Sprongl's podium in the Swift years ago. I was, to say the least, disappointed (and international viewers must of fell out of their chairs laughing). To say I am out for "fun" in rallying would be completely wrong. I'm out for the win. I'm aggressive in the co-drivers seat, and don't do well when people don't push. A milk run is not an option, milk runs suck. I don't co-drive for people who don't push. If I wanted fun, I'd hang out with my friends and drink beer (while probably working on cars). At the same time, you mention (again, since I'm a perfect example), the DSM as getting its ass handed to it against the money. What does money and competitive have to do with it? Comparing TALENT is where it is at, its apples to oranges at the point you bring money into the equation. It does not mean you are not good if you place 5th at a national in Canada, even if the money decimates you. At the same time, it might mean that you aren't good if a Swift placed ahead of you. I understand how this would be worked out with a spec series, but still say that you are limiting the quality you desire by doing so. Very few people will fit into your mold of "quality" rally people, just like very few people fit into mine. Keep in mind, I'd love to be on the podium (as I am getting slight mixed signals from your post), but I'd rather go balls out to finish 5th then win a rally outright if I felt I competed harder for the 5th place. Since no-one is getting rich/sponsored here, the numbers are irrelevant.

My own personal bet on myself is that the talon will probably be a neat little ball after 3 events. It's going to be interesting to see how long it lasts as I'm going to squeeze it for all it is worth. I also understand quite perfectly what you mean by this:

"And I don't want them in a bunch of shit cars that they will get tired of and decide they are bored with the battle for 6th place because the top 5 all are in a money spending competition 'raising' the bar. Trust me, I've personally seen it happen. I don't want someone stuck in some shit Focus that can't compete with the closer ratio gearing, higher and cheaper HP, and lighter weight of Dave's car without spending a shit ton of money getting a turbocharger setup, which costs them twice as much as they'd originally thought, keeps them out of the car for over a year, then just becomes a headache when they have trouble getting a decent tune or keeping half shafts together or keeping gearboxes together or or or... "

Even though I've only been around for 5 odd years, the number of people who have done this is staggering in Canada. But once again (if referring to 2wd), it isn't the money keeping those people out of the top 5, it's their talent. Have to cut down on the ego to see where you truly fit (you being the general, not "you", and learn that you must develop to get to the top. It's been proven time and again in 2wd.

Have you won an event (or 2wd overall) in the Merkur yet? Why the hell not?! It's the perfect rally vehicle, you should be slaying everyone!

I really liked Grants Rant

lots of truth in there. I found an awesome Girl that is very supportive, she loves driving fast and loves my STI. she navigates, also drives the car in Rally cross, or autocross (wants a track day)

she has been willing to Ride in the car to and from events and was willing to (kind what grant said) move far far away for a "big house" well 1050 sq ft, 2 car garage with trailer parking...

but after our last rally she is over riding in the car, but she's willing to have the tow vehicle be her DD.. looking at options for tow vehicle and trailer... but ya , economists would be wise to almost look at rally entries as the new economic indidator.

It's funny how I can nod my head at so many of the things you list there.

The only thing we really disagree on is that I'd rather have people start in cars that the can grow with rather than battle to chase reliability or have to fabricate a bunch of shit. That's why I'm currently leaning towards the BMW stuff. It's a car that you could leave nearly stock and still have plenty of power and if you really feel the need for more, there is easy upgrade paths. I think the Merkur fits this too, just they are harder to find and tend to be rattier.

I won both days of Rally Colorado in Group 5. Don't think I was anywhere near overall 2WD but I got sucked into the money trap. As in by the start of the rally I had maybe $20 to my name and won $100 each day just for finishing. So I pushed in spots, but mostly took it relatively easy and kept the boost down. I've had two 2nd place finishes in hill climbs though against Andrew Sutherland's old SRT4.

In regards to driving quality... I've filmed at eight stage rallies now. Anywhere from four to ten stages at each event. I know very well how non-deep the field is. There's been a few times where we're yelling 'go, go, go... Gas gas gas!!!' I did talk to the crew about leaving commentary out while camera was still rolling.

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HiTempguy
Further to my talent assessment, as of last year, in the right hands, Mike's Talon could easily have won events in the WCRC (wonder what Keith has to say about that ).

Adam... the qualifyer 'in the right hands' pretty much allows you to make any claim you want and closes the door to meaningful discussion. I wouldn't disagree with your perception that there is a lot of 'driving' left on the table.

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Morison
Adam... the qualifyer 'in the right hands' pretty much allows you to make any claim you want and closes the door to meaningful discussion. I wouldn't disagree with your perception that there is a lot of 'driving' left on the table.

In the right hands = talent. Talent = people like Brandon, people like Onur, people like Hugo! How is that closing the door to any discussion? The right hands allowed a 1 wheel drive swift to top the nationals only a few years ago (albeit, there wasn't much other talent around). The vehicles we race (IMO) have such little to do with how someone places it isn't even funny. Hence why I see the spec class as flawed. The spec class is RIGHT in all other ways (cost containment, drive-ability, competition, fun, etc).

What would your meaningful discussion entail Keith besides what I've already brought to the table?

P.S I hope that the TBA next to Pat's name means you