Is Rallying in trouble in the US?

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NoCoast
1: Open Light car and 2WD cars have won overall regionals already.

2: Spec BMW cars would still be competing against the Merkur at least for a few years. My bigger point is to get the Scott Leonards and Roger Matthews not into VW's where they spend half their rally career DNFing and chasing reliability and into something they can just rally and drive. People could still build a Golf as it's still G2 or G5 for classing.

3: Everyone thinks the fast guy in their region is super talented. Too bad more of them won't travel out of their region for Max Attack events.

4: A built Legacy is probably within 50 lbs in weight as an Impreza and can use all the same components. 90-94 Legacys are more common and cheaper. I bet I could grab $250 cash and find one to buy that drives by this afternoon here in Colorado. I'd need at least $1000 for an Impreza. I like the nimbler 'feel' of the Impreza though myself. I've owned both for years.

1. I know. I sit in the right side of one (Open Light). This is why I'm so stoked on Open Light and why it's actually starting to take off on the east coast. We had 8 (?) OL cars at STPR and we're showing people that a properly built car can be more than just a stepping stone to Open class.

2. Great, but the amount of people who want to rally a BMW or Merkur is tiny compared to the amount that want to run a Subaru, especially if we are talking about new people. I personally hate Golfs but I see the appeal, the same as an old Impreza. There's a good chance that if you need something, someone has already figured it out and sells it or someone at the event has a spare one for you. It will be hard to build that kind of support network among competitors for guys building to a new one-off spec class.

3. Not sure exactly who you are referring to here (Duplessis maybe)? I love MaxAttack and it's honestly what got me into competing vs. just volunteering (Rally WV '08).

4. Maybe in CO, but not on the east coast. I looked for a long time for a Legacy or Legacy SS before I bought my latest Impreza ($750 on CL; didn't run; needed a cam sensor).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 11:00AM by Jard.

Open light class with cost restrictions on suspension and drive train will bring cars. Dont turn the Subie and Mitubishi guys away from rally. Convince them to build cheap with rules that dont allow them to spend money.

N/A engines only

No STI 6 speed trans (no adjustable center diff )

No lsd, Spool , welded or open diff only.

Must run pump gas, No high compression race gas only engines

Series approved suspension only. non external adjustable. Maybe $2500.00 max. The series would have to decide what manufactures struts are legal.

Oem brake calipers only. No AP , brembo or Wilwood

I 100% disagree with the no tire cap rule. If a driver wears his tires out at the end then he needs to have better tire management. Tires are the most expensive consumable part in rally. You have to limit tires in order to keep cost down period.

Bring as many tires to the rally as you want but teams are only allowed to race on 4 new tires per event. Used tires are fine but must show wear. Series will mark the tires and if your on unmarked tires your DQ. This can easily be teched at the end or start of each stage.

Every Car entered must sponsor at least $25.00 to the series. The money made will be paid back to the teams. Maybe tow money or hard charger. Teams can vote for how they want to divide the the prizes before the event.

2wd can do this to. You would actually illuminate a lot of current 2wd teams with this rule set. (I believe most all 2wd have some sort of lsd and high compression)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 11:27AM by Reamer.

Oh you can't get away from Subaru's in Colorado. I'm 'trying' to keep people from going Open class with their builds, albeit usually a lost cause. Two possible more cages to build in coming months. Starting tear down of the daily driver Friday to use for fit purposes for first cage kit.
So yeah, Open Light is one of the classes I'll focus my attention on because it's the original idea even. But at the same time, we'll try to show people that a RWD Merkur or BMW can be even more fun and I'm starting to get people to get over their unlogical and nearly psychopathic obsession with a particular brand/model.
6 speed in OL car comes with a big weight penalty. There were 3 OL cars with 2.5 engines at Rally Colorado the last year. They were all closely competing, though one had a 6 speed the extra weight negated some of the benefits.

I can see people wanting to go with a specific brand if they already have cars and experience with that brand, going with what you know and with what you already use or having sitting around makes some sense.

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Jard
Lack of interest among drivers capable of running at that level.

I'm a more "recent" rally guy. Utecht is pretty much the only one I can think of off the top of my head as long as I've been competing (3 years).

If you go to 2009, Chris D was winning Regionals in a G2 Golf.

Utecht doesn't rally anymore, so I wouldn't count him.


Open Light wins because similar drivers don't show up in Open cars. Same reason G2 is able to take 2wd points (no similar drivers in good G5 cars).

Personally, I don't care where I'm finishing. I just want 3-4 drivers I can swap times with. Preferably similar drivers in similar cars...but I've had fun besting n00bs in Open cars, too. As long as they're willing to play along, and don't get all butthurt about comparing times/getting beat by a G2 car.

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fliz

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Jard
Lack of interest among drivers capable of running at that level.

I'm a more "recent" rally guy. Utecht is pretty much the only one I can think of off the top of my head as long as I've been competing (3 years).

If you go to 2009, Chris D was winning Regionals in a G2 Golf.

Utecht doesn't rally anymore, so I wouldn't count him.


Open Light wins because similar drivers don't show up in Open cars. Same reason G2 is able to take 2wd points (no similar drivers in good G5 cars).

Personally, I don't care where I'm finishing. I just want 3-4 drivers I can swap times with. Preferably similar drivers in similar cars...but I've had fun besting n00bs in Open cars, too. As long as they're willing to play along, and don't get all butthurt about comparing times/getting beat by a G2 car.

I was talking RWD specifically (and only) when I mentioned Utecht. There are a ton of great FWD cars and drivers that can win regionals.

I agree with Grant on the 6 speed thing on an OL car, weight penalty almost makes it not worth it, plus it's hard to get the DCCD working correctly on a car that didn't originally have it.

When you start making rules you need to be able to enforce them at an event. So saying you can't install a front LSD = not that great of a rule (unless you can really tell all the time by lifting the car up and spinning the wheels?). People who build 00 - 01 RSs are going to have stock VLSDs in the rear.

N/A under 2.65L works just fine (current RA rule). If you want to build some crazy race gas motor, that's fine with me. Do you pay for it in reliability? Do you finish events? (I don't know)

I do like the tire restriction rule if you are introducing a cash payout like the MaxAttack model. That's a great equalizer. Other than that, keep it an Open class.

The only thing that's missing is someone to organize this whole thing...

Have strict penalties for illegal cars.You dont have to check every car every event just random cars. No one wants to be labeled a cheater so public notification of cheating should self police. Lsd in some Subarus would have to change it out. If its a penalty for 6 speeds then making a rule against them is no big deal same with big motors. Putting a ferm cost cap will help teams feel there in a fair rally and are more apt to finish there cars.

Having the $25.00 buy in seperates you from the other rally cars that are at the same event. Your times will be compared to teams that payed in and are legal.

I agree the racer in me doesnt like the rule restrictions but if your looking for grass root racers to come and play I believe its the only way. If you start here and feel froggy then leap into the money races that dont pay back and have $500,000 budgets And thats all classes even 2wd.

I can't imagine having the cash for brand new tires every event, let alone multiple sets at $800 per set. The nice thing about 2WD is you wear some of your new tires on the front one event and then swap the rears (still relatively new) to the front for the next event.

Yeah, the desire for a single make thing I can understand because it is an attempt to, legislatively, make the driver's performance the decisive thing..

Not the budget.

But, the only single make series that have ever prospered in rally have had seriously substantial Manufacturer or importer support with subsidised car price, and a good kit at a subsidised price....
Not these $50,000 things either...
Look at this insane stuff from early 00ies:
READ the details: (it's not difficult just open your eyes)



Look at the payouts: (1000 FF= $170, so 10,000FF= 1700 bucks)

Challenge Saxo VTS......25000FF if the event is at a "Coupe de France" and 30,000FF or $5100 for those at Championat de France rounds. Payouts to 35th place. Top 3 get a free car for the next season.

Look at the plus and minus chart.....minus 20,000 "Inscription fee"

Volant Peugeot 206:
33,000 FF for 5610 bucks plus 10,000FF of "Peugeot bucks" to spend at Peugeot Sport Boutique. Payout to 20th. Winner gets a Super 1600 ride for the following season...

Trophee Saxo Super 1600:
Gravel rounds 80,000FF--$13,600 Dollars americaine and for asphalt rounds a measly 65,000 or $11,050....why even bother for such chicken feed, eh?

Trophee Saxo T4 Super 1600 (awd)

A mere 50,000 on gravel and 33,000FF on asphalt....


And of course there's Michelin money and Total fuel deals thrown in.

There's INCENTIVES for doing these single make cups for EVERYBODY....
Organisers get a guarantee of an extra 30-45 cars (Yeah, at least.. Even in Socialist Sweden in the 90s with their Suzuki GTI cup they'd get 35-38 cars per event).
Drivers get a good chance at covering expenses in a car that a local dealer--remember dealers are decentralised and often very small--LOCAL--dealers-----since french payouts are very broadly spread out.

MFGs get ad copy.


There are ZERO incentives for a guy here to lock 'em into a single car which MIGHT just have some chronic fault like shit balljoints or delicate gearbox...

JUST 2wd evens things out so much it ain't funny and we have 25 years of data showing that: we've seen plenty of events where 2 minutes covers 4th thru 15th with 2wd cars.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I don't mean to come in here and claim Open Light is the end all solution to getting new people involved and the sustainability of rally in the USA, but I do think it's the way to get more Subaru dorks involved.

Considering the fan base...

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Is Rallying in trouble in the US?

Unquestionably.

Participation, both on an aggregate and per-driver basis, is down, and has been continuing on a downward trend for some years now. Nine rallies cancelled in one year is the worst I can remember.

So without offering any answers, I will say YOU have to work on making it better.

1) The "YOU" is each person reading this thread.
2) I'm specifically not offering answers and ideas in this post because when I do, the assumption is that "Oh, good, 'they' have a solution and are working on it. So I don't have to do anything." There is no 'they', there's only 'us'. So get to work. Go fix rally. Start by saying "I'm going to volunteer 20 hours of my time to the nearest rally to me to help make it happen and I'm starting with 30 minutes today."

Cheers,
Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

I have a lot of gearhead buddies in other misc motorsports (from Desert Racing to Rock Crawling to SCCA Solo). Many are very interested in Rally. It would be cool to have a "ride-along" exhibition stage where we can put some of these folks into the passenger seat to give them a taste. I know my friends will be more willing to come out to help service or stage volunteer if we can give them a little seat time, and ultimately they would want to get into a left seat.

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[
2. Great, but the amount of people who want to rally a BMW or Merkur is tiny compared to the amount that want to run a Subaru, especially if we are talking about new people.

The key to the future is "WHY?"

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I personally hate Golfs but I see the appeal, the same as an old Impreza. There's a good chance that if you need something, someone has already figured it out and sells it

No, not really. Golves break their CVs/hubs constantly and bend their 'twisty beams" and there is no easy solution that we know of...
Older Subies shed gears on average 100 SS miles...no easy solution.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 01:14PM by john vanlandingham.

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john vanlandingham
Older Subies shed gears on average 100 SS miles...no easy solution.

You keep saying this but that has not been my experience or observation, especially when we're talking about Open Light cars or even lower spec Open cars.

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john vanlandingham
Older Subies shed gears on average 100 SS miles...no easy solution.

It's really hard to make generalizations. We've run an OL Subie for 2 full years now and have done little more than change fluids.

I think we used 3 total sets of gravel tires this year, ran on the same set of tarmac tires at Rally TN 2010 and 2011, and have run on the same set of brake pads both years (not that I would recommend this).

This year was Sandblast (DNF SS4 - tree), Tennessee (tarmac), STPR, Hyperfest Rally Sprint, NEFR, WV, and Black River Stages.


Everyone breaks their 02 - 03 WRX gearboxes too, except mine lasted 8 years of 220whp including 2 years of SCCA rallycross abuse...and it was not broken when I pulled it out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 01:20PM by Jard.