Is Rallying in trouble in the US?

Quote
Jard
For anyone else saying they think an Open Light car is boring, they haven't ridden with or seen a driver worth riding with or watching.

sounds like you need to release some of that elusive in-car video

I'm with Gene though, from a newish competitor there doesn't seem to be a lot of fat and its the little things that go a long way to making people feel like they are welcome / appreciated / it was worth spending money on this event.

"Fat" is all relative. For instance, I get the route books printed at a commercial printer (for me, it's Fedex/Kinkos). I know other events print those themselves, punch them, and bind them. I could do that too, and save 500ish dollars. Do I have the extra 15 hours to print and bind 50 route books myself? Hell no. Am I deluged with racers saying "I'd like to volunteer two full days to help with the route book assembly."? Nope.

There are several areas where someone volunteering a lot of time could reduce the expenses of the rally:

-All documents could be home printed/bound: maybe $1200 saved, 40 hours added
-T shirts home-screened: maybe $400 saved, 40 hours added (per hundred shirts)
-volunteer meals home cooked: maybe $300 saved, 25 hours added
-home made trophies: maybe $300 saved, 80 hours added
-vinyl home-cut: maybe $300 saved, 20 hours added

So a rally could save maybe a total of $2500 by adding 205 hours of work. (After investing in a binding machine and some t shirt screen printing equipment and some engraving equipment) Take Black River Stages, with 43 entrants. That amount (evenly spread across the entries) is about $58 per team that the entry fee could be lowered by.

Now find me someone who can volunteer five weeks worth of full 8 hour days to save everyone else fifty bucks. This kind of thing is done by PTAs and church groups... but not in this sport.

I once had someone call me up and say, "Hey, me and 4 guys want to come rally, but we want to pay the early rate. Can we get a group discount?" I said, "Well, no, but how about this, I'll give you 50 bucks off each if, between the five of you, you can accomplish these tasks: a press release before and after the rally (for the rally), bringing 3 new volunteers, a couple hours of data entry, and one person getting there early to help at registration."

They all signed up at the regular price.

So, saving $50, historically, hasn't been enough of an incentive to get even ONE hour of volunteer help.

Rambling a bit, but I'll finish with this: rallies are already vastly subsidized by the amount of free labor they get from volunteers and organizers. Take something like the scoring software I'm using. If a person had come to the company I used to write software for and said "Build this scoring system" their bill would have been in the neighborhood of $35,000 dollars. The online event registration / licensing system? I spoke with another sanctioning body who had theirs built for them commercially.... $65,000 dollars. Typical "Event Planners" who handle things like large conferences generally are in the range of $120,000 a year... organizers are pretty close to $0.

So if you want the "real" cost of a rally, or what it "should" cost, I'd guess a rally entry fee would be more realistically priced at $3,000 to $6,000 per team for the events we have in the US. So that we've been able to get them down to $500 in some cases is pretty amazing.

Bottom line, there are still savings to be had in the event cost. However, everything is a tradeoff, and the tradeoff here is a 5 to 10 percent entry fee reduction in exchange for large increases in volunteer time needed. The low hanging fruit has already been picked. The high fruit is there, waiting to be picked. Will anyone step forward?

Cheers,
Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Anders..EXCELLENT POST !!!

Look not to the sanctioning bodies or organizers for any serious cost relief. I'd guess nearly everyone involved in the business end of rally used to actually rally and knows full well the cost and struggle for competitors.


Individual sponsors can be had. I managed to get a local tavern to pay my entry fees. A local beverage distributor got me some co-op money from Hamms beer to help cover expenses. A local parts store kicked in paint and rally car parts. Nismo sold me performance parts at true dealer cost. A Nissan dealer sold me replacement parts at cost. 2 different tire companies helped with tires, Toyo kicked in a lot...although I probably lost on that deal as I'm sure it cost me a few overall wins because the tires just weren't near as good as real rally tires. That's back when we had lots of events to run. I managed to keep the car clean, painted, displayed. I called the sponsors, reported to the newspapapers. It was a bit of work but it paid off. On top of that I managed to help with scrutineering, helping with route books, route and mileage checkout, chaired a few events and helped/hindered with regional SCCA rally board. Of course we didn't have the internet to spend a bunch of time on talkin about stuff..

Series sponsors and having someone find 'you' sponsors aren't a reality due to all the mentioned above issues...rally is 'awkward' in the business/advertising world in the states.

Yep, I wish I could volunteer more time before/after events but it would cut into my second favorite thing: "arguing about rally on the interwebs."

The hard part about reduced towing, is that by making a rally closer to one competitor, you probably make it further for more. 12 hours is pretty much my limit. NEFR was 18 because I didn't go through Canada, it's 14 by Google maps but was an exception.

But list of events from furthest to closest. (* means Can/US border cross)
Ojibwe - 15
NEFR - 14*
100AW - 12
Rally TN - 10.5
LSPR - 10
BRS - 9*
STPR - 8
Rally WV - 8
Tall Pines - 7.5*
Galway - 7*
Sno*Drift - 3.5*

Besides Sno*Drift, I have a choice between several events that are just about an 8 hour tow and nothing closer.



There was a discussion on the Linkedin 2WD discussion about the value added from MaxAttack for the lower guys. It was mentioned above, that some of these guys show up with no real hopes of being competitive, yet still spend an additional $50 which ends up going in the faster guys.

Now, I take it as an excust to get faster if I show up and get spanked. I'm still working on progressing my driving talent. Sno*Drift was my first event that I grabbed some cash, although it wouldn't have happened had 2 other competitors not had problems. But that's a bit how Sno*Drift is. A bit of a gamble on if you take it easy to be consistant and out of the snow banks. Or do you take the chances with the risk of getting stuck in a bank and losing several minutes, losing time in the end.

Hey Alan. That was not meant maliciously but just in case, I apologize! I too wear glasses.

Whoa. It's funny Gene. In the end you come back to and I paraphrase cause that's back one page but, in the end, it comes down to, drivers don't want a single road rally.
I suppose there's another issue here. I've never been to Doo Wops or Mt Hood or Nemadji or other low key events so I guess my view is skewed due to mostly having gone to National events.

Here's my thoughts for a rally sprint.
Single road so one road use fee.
Every competitor must bring one volunteer or pay $100 fine for a volunteer.
No route book or stage notes. Open recce the day before and morning of event.
All tech inspections done on annual basis at our shop in Denver except in special cases. Scrutineering to check safety equipment.
Any awards party will be at a location that is free to organizers or there won't be an official awards party.
Ambulance
Sanction and Insurance

For Rally Colorado stages, there are no road use fees... For CORE we'd likely have $250-500 fees. Not sure on ambulance or sanctioning and insurance.
Yeah, competitors want full stages and full stage rallies. They can still get that if they're willing to tow and pay. If there's five or six smaller events that cost less than a night at the opera or a Pearl Jam concert I think we could grow a larger community.

Open Light cars are amazingly more powerful at low altitude. Above 6000 ft and they are snooze-ish. They can be fun to watch and some of the guys in the PNW and NEFR have impressed me in the past in OL cars.

Quote
BillyElliot
But list of events from furthest to closest. (* means Can/US border cross)
Ojibwe - 15
NEFR - 14*
100AW - 12
Rally TN - 10.5
LSPR - 10
BRS - 9*
STPR - 8
Rally WV - 8
Tall Pines - 7.5*
Galway - 7*
Sno*Drift - 3.5*

Besides Sno*Drift, I have a choice between several events that are just about an 8 hour tow and nothing closer.

You're lucky. Our closest event is 100AW and it's the same time for us as it is for you.

Quote
NoCoast
Hey Alan. That was not meant maliciously but just in case, I apologize! I too wear glasses.

Whoa. It's funny Gene. In the end you come back to and I paraphrase cause that's back one page but, in the end, it comes down to, drivers don't want a single road rally.
I suppose there's another issue here. I've never been to Doo Wops or Mt Hood or Nemadji or other low key events so I guess my view is skewed due to mostly having gone to National events.

Here's my thoughts for a rally sprint.
Single road so one road use fee.
Every competitor must bring one volunteer or pay $100 fine for a volunteer.
No route book or stage notes. Open recce the day before and morning of event.
All tech inspections done on annual basis at our shop in Denver except in special cases. Scrutineering to check safety equipment.
Any awards party will be at a location that is free to organizers or there won't be an official awards party.
Ambulance
Sanction and Insurance

For Rally Colorado stages, there are no road use fees... For CORE we'd likely have $250-500 fees. Not sure on ambulance or sanctioning and insurance.
Yeah, competitors want full stages and full stage rallies. They can still get that if they're willing to tow and pay. If there's five or six smaller events that cost less than a night at the opera or a Pearl Jam concert I think we could grow a larger community.

Open Light cars are amazingly more powerful at low altitude. Above 6000 ft and they are snooze-ish. They can be fun to watch and some of the guys in the PNW and NEFR have impressed me in the past in OL cars.

Hyperfest Rally Sprint at Summit Point was $150 ($200 for late entry), used a single road about 2.0 miles long, and had a "free" test 'n tune session the day before (you had to give spectator rides). It was generally awesome.

Rally WV was $795 early entry, used a single road with stages between 15 - 20 miles each, and offered jemba notes but no recce. The road was good, but not $795 good.

Just don't try to charge full "National" prices for your single road event and it can be awesome.

5 mile road = maybe $250 entry fee?

Quote
NoCoast
You're lucky. Our closest event is 100AW and it's the same time for us as it is for you.

Solution, like you were mentioning, is to move your rally hub. My only issue is working on the car. I'd have to pay someone to maintain the car, and at $60-75 an hour, that's not really an option. Might as well just tow to those events further away from you.

But the situation in CO and the general central part of the country, there's not much out there.

If I could pick anywhere to base myself (at least for Central RA division) I would pick Chicago.

Ojibwe - 11 (4 savings)
100AW - 7 (5 savings)
LSPR - 7.5 (2.5 savings)
Sno*Drift - 6.5 (3 added)
Rally TN - 9 (1.5 savings)

BRS, STPR, WV, TP, Galway, NEFR all add time, about 4-5 hours.

The sponsors would pay the association. What they do with the money is up to them.I have dealt with sponsors for years. Very few have came to an event or know much about what goes on. Most give passes to employees that would like to see the race. Its about how they look in the community. Gene just proved this by pointing out how Subaru gave the credit card to pay for lunch. Subaru just got free publicity on this sight for doing this along time ago. Spending 20K on Detroit Tiger box seats does nothing for a car dealership in a small town 50miles away, but they still buy them and give them away every year.

The idea of the lower budget car was for the ability to help get more cars out to the event. And it gives a separate series to promote along with the rally. Sponsors give a little cash to help out and get the full rally publicity.

I know there are companies that can benefit from rally. The local parts stores come to mind. When your at sno drift and need something you could go to Autozone, Napa or Auto Value. If Auto Value sponsors the series you should be more apt to go there and if the local Auto Value has a heads up they also should have those rare parts rally cars need.

Maybe the cost #,s are to low maybe open up to Lsd and $4500 on suspension. Again once the car is done its about getting to the next event. And yes it is about giving the guy a shot that cant win against money. Thats what I feel is stopping guys from jumping in. You have to feel your going to get a fair shake if your going to throw 15K into a car and another 15K to race it for a year. A lot of this is to get people to take the leap. a good finish or a story to tell friends how you beat a higher class car goes a long ways.

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NoCoast
Hey Alan. That was not meant maliciously but just in case, I apologize! I too wear glasses.

No prob. I didn't take it personal.

FWIW, +1 on Anders' and Gene's posts.

alan

Ouestion for Grant Huges.
How many sprint type rallys would Colorado support
if they were all held at CORE?
I see about a 6 to 7 month span of good weather.
What kind of turn out would you expect?
The last time I rallied was in 1997.
Back then an Ambulance cost about $700.
I would expect 2 times that cost today minimum.


Nick

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Nick Leone
Former scca member

I don't think having them all at one venue is feasible. People would get bored, plus CORE is such a good testing facility.
But I think we could support a four to five event series.
One CORE event.
Two different Steamboat events on Cog stages.
One to Two Wyoming based events, likely either way north on the western slope of the Big Horns at the Nowater OHV park or outside Laramie.
One or two snow events, either at BWDS or in Steamboat area or Leadville/Lake County area.
There is also the possibility of including select CHCA events in the schedule.

That's my ideal local series. If we could keep entry fees in the 2-300 range and the primary classes in the $10-15k range we could easily build a healthy local rally scene. But that is alot of work for a donation of time from an organizational standpoint. Which is why we also sell and build everything and generate revenues as well as competitors by a regular rally school conveniently held in cars that are identical or at least quite similar to the classes that the series focuses on. People are free to show up in any car but everything from press releases to video coverage (why wouldn't I produce coverage for public access TV?) would focus on the cars that we chose to support.

Looks like interest in the term "rally race" is in decline and has been for some time:

Google Trend "Rally Race"

"Rallye" is also sloping downwards

"Rallye"

as is "WRC"
"WRC"

(I blame Loeb - too fast and too French )

So its a world wide problem - however note in the lower portion - the Finn's use the terms in their searches the most as a percentage of all countries - go figur...

But the new figure skating is increasing...
http://www.google.com/trends?q=gymkhana&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0

Rallycross is increasing...
http://www.google.com/trends?q=rallycross&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all

Max Attack is increasing...
http://www.google.com/trends?q=max+attack&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0