How about come up with a series that has a rule set based on cost. Not just car cost but total cost. 2wd awd what ever drive you want you just cant spend over x amount on upgrades. Basic cage safety and a price cap on suspension and drive train up grades. Then limit type of fuel and amount of tires per rally. If you cant run race gas this should help police engine cost.

Racing is still expensive but if theres a series designed around cost it would have to be cheaper then our current options.

The problem is one argument is talent and the other is car. In the cases you mention the 'talent' is already driving a car that has more performance and more potential than a talon. I think if you put any of those drivers in that car they would be slower. (Much as Antoine was much slower in the bastard than in his Evo at baie last year. Still faster than the majority of the pack but slower nonetheless)

We've seen Pastrana win at a Canadian Regional in a 2.5RS. Block was quicker than Mirra in that same 2.5RS at Oregon a few years ago. Trinder used to win WCRC regionals in a 2.5RS going up against an open class Talon.

We fully agree that the driver makes the difference.

But the phrase 'In the right hands' might as well be 'if the planets align' or 'if the fast guys DNF.'

I think we can also agree that there are cases of budget making up for talent deficiencies. The simple ability to accellerate can make some relatively impressive stage times from the point and squirt crowd.

It is interesting you seem to suggest that the skill level has come up a bit in Canada over the past few years... funny thing is that nobody is getting within 1sec/k of Norm's PGT pace on Helmer. There's a lot of speed being left on the ground out there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 09:44PM by Morison.

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Morison

But the phrase 'In the right hands' might as well be 'if the planets align' or 'if the fast guys DNF.'

Well then Keith, I honestly can not satisfy your rigid use of specifics. While my use of "in the right hands" can not let us have an honest conversation due to its all encompassing attributes, your narrowing on the focus of one aspect of a conversation can't either. I clarified that in the right hands = talent. I don't think what talent is "if the planets align" or "if the fast guys dnf". Talent allows someone to do extraordinary things with very little.

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In the cases you mention the 'talent' is already driving a car that has more performance and more potential than a talon. I think if you put any of those drivers in that car they would be slower.

So? What is your point? Winning is winning, if they win in the slower car, that doesn't make them less talented. You seem to feel the specific need to point out Scott beat a Talon (presumably MJ. Why? Scott's a faster driver than Mark, he probably would have won if they switched vehicles. Beyond all of this, I feel you are trying to somehow apply these things to "me" (always have in these conversations). This isn't about me, or you, it is about people saying things like "talon's/2.5RS' are uncompetitive". Sure they are, as a strictly vehicle vs vehicle comparison. But if you practice and acquire that talent (a 323GTX recently won a regional in the states), look what happens.

Edit-
I`d say a legassy is worse than a 2.5RS, but Onur seemed to have no problem beating people with it, and it definitely counts as "uncompetitive".

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Morison

I think we can also agree that there are cases of budget making up for talent deficiencies. The simple ability to accelerate can make some relatively impressive stage times from the point and squirt crowd.

I can't say anything beyond I agree (and truly do), or else I'll get in trouble in real life

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Morison

It is interesting you seem to suggest that the skill level has come up a bit in Canada over the past few years... funny thing is that nobody is getting within 1sec/k of Norm's PGT pace on Helmer. There's a lot of speed being left on the ground out there.

I would suggest that the people who compete out east have rarely come to BC to challenge that time. Also, I'm not saying that the skill level is coming up THAT much, I am saying that the 4th thru 10th spots in nationals are mediocrely quick and on relatively level playing fields creating good competition (which is much better than in previous years). Beyond that, Norm is an extremely talented driver (you would know)! And this is my point, no one should be stepping up to STi's until they are close to Norm. But that isn't how it works A lot of speed being left is an understatement Keith, which is why I find it funny you argue with me so hard against the has-been PGT cars of yesteryear. They are still "fast enough" with talent, so people shouldn't be scared away from buying these cheap vehicles. As you yourself pointed out, with enough talent, they can win



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/27/2011 10:38PM by HiTempguy.

Actually the Talon I was talking about was Janusz Komorowski's open class car. Janusz could also run close to Norm in is WRX with a PGT Talon... (Albeit in 2004, before Norm got a 'real' co-driver)

Adam, this isn't about you... so don't worry about that. :-)

Also, I don't know if I argue 'that hard' against anything. I think the reality is that you have to run a Talon much closer to 100% than a subaru to get the same speed out of it. You're starting out with a deficit from the time you show up at the event. Then again - you won't find a $2K subaru around so if you show up with new tires you certainly close that gap.

Seat time is better than no seat time - that's for sure.

oh ... from what I saw on FaceBook today TBA stands for 'Tough Being Alan'

Adam, little question: what do you think makes a Le-gassy "uncompetitive"?

And I mean it in "quotes", like what's the "party line"?

I think they're maybe the best of all Sub-a-rat shells to begin with---just gotta have a gear set that works---which is maybe the only REAL flaw in the Eclipsed...

Sorta like i think the Gaylant shell is an excellent shell, so I think Le-gassy is too...after all after the mid 90s flirting with shorter cars, EVERYBODY went back to wheelbase around 102"-103"---and got pig heavy. (And yes they put in real nice gearsets and better final drives too but that can be done in the older shells (which cost just a couple of hundred to start with.)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Good stuff guys! I would be that guy who wants desperately to get into the sport without wasting money on a P.O.S. I'll get sick of! I don't have a ton of money and would prefer to be hands-on in the car build, half the fun. I road raced motorcycles and I need my fix and rally has always appealed!
I don't have to do every event possible if I can't afford it at the time. I've looked into e30's before and here in MN, they have a shitload of miles and rust to go with it! At least in the sub 2k price. I want to get over the hump without getting burned (ie, wrong car choice, lack of rallies, etc).

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Doorman
Good stuff guys! I would be that guy who wants desperately to get into the sport without wasting money on a P.O.S. I'll get sick of! I don't have a ton of money and would prefer to be hands-on in the car build, half the fun. I road raced motorcycles and I need my fix and rally has always appealed!
I don't have to do every event possible if I can't afford it at the time. I've looked into e30's before and here in MN, they have a shitload of miles and rust to go with it! At least in the sub 2k price. I want to get over the hump without getting burned (ie, wrong car choice, lack of rallies, etc).

Then what is the "None yet, focus/fiesta soon I hope" in the sidebar thing by your name all about?

As for E30, they are a very very lightly built car, Sheetmetal wheelbearings rack, gearbox , diff, brakes, everything very light.. I say at least 2 steps down from what I feel comfortable with. Now there are some potentially interesting motors with some of the newish 4s, but we don't drive motors, we drive the whole car.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
As for E30, they are a very very lightly built car, Sheetmetal wheelbearings rack, gearbox , diff, brakes, everything very light.. I say at least 2 steps down from what I feel comfortable with. Now there are some potentially interesting motors with some of the newish 4s, but we don't drive motors, we drive the whole car.

Yeah, look at that caswell guy - can't seem to finish a race in an E30.

It may seem dumb, but could be worth taking a couple day vacation to pick up the right shell if it saves you a bunch of time on teardown and shell prep. We're certainly spoiled here in Colorado with good access to rust free shells, and after growing up in MA and owning a Galant VR4 that lived in Vermont for a decade...never again.

FWIW, I'm not really as sold on the local spec series thing as there are easily 10 people with rally cars already built and just a day or two thrash away from being raceable. To get rallying going again in the region, we just need bodies in cars, not bodies in the same cars. I think the idea of developing a kit on the cheap side of things could be a great way to usher in the next wave of cone dodgers who have the whole Blue Subie perception. I've been doing my best to dispel that myth and getting people into CHCA events, but it probably doesn't help when I break out the mitsu. Hopefully most of the bugs will be ironed out of the Compact so that next season it sees more green flags.

Dave

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john vanlandingham
Adam, little question: what do you think makes a Le-gassy "uncompetitive"?

And I mean it in "quotes", like what's the "party line"?

I think they're maybe the best of all Sub-a-rat shells to begin with---just gotta have a gear set that works---which is maybe the only REAL flaw in the Eclipsed...

Sorta like i think the Gaylant shell is an excellent shell, so I think Le-gassy is too...after all after the mid 90s flirting with shorter cars, EVERYBODY went back to wheelbase around 102"-103"---and got pig heavy. (And yes they put in real nice gearsets and better final drives too but that can be done in the older shells (which cost just a couple of hundred to start with.)

The party line is it is big, heavy, and has an anemic motor. What they don't consider is it doesn't rattle like a GC8 does and it really doesn't take that much effort to get a bit more power out of it. As you've professed John, replacing three diffs (well, a tranny and a rear diff) sucks to get the better gears, but in reality it is pretty cheap if you do it yourself. I wanted a legassy badly, but I missed the boat on a few rally ones Would have gladly taken a Galant over a Talon, but you think those things are rare down south, I see more GTX's up here than Galants!

Keith, I think we are in agreeance on things, it wouldn't be the first time we say the same thing differently I just want to see people out racing (look at Kurt for instance), and more importantly for the people who are already out there, pushing as hard as they can!

I understand the Legacy over Impreza for wheelbase issues, but I'm not sure why everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel here...

Zimmer nailed it with his Open Light build book for GCs. Light, tough enough if you keep it mostly out of the ditches, and good power/weight with some bolt-ons on the NA 2.5 motor.

I'll take a well-built Open Light car over any PGT car any day of the week. PGT = pig heavy for any shell newer than the early 00's.

Of course that's only if you have to be in something AWD, which some people think they do. I would love to have an old RX-7 (or anything else fun and RWD) to thrash, but I wouldn't expect to be winning regionals overall. I think the right driver can win those regionals overall in a well-prepped Open Light car.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2011 08:19AM by Jard.

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Jard
I understand the Legacy over Impreza for wheelbase issues, but I'm not sure why everyone is trying to reinvent the wheel here...

Zimmer nailed it with his Open Light build book for GCs. Light, tough enough if you keep it mostly out of the ditches, and good power/weight with some bolt-ons on the NA 2.5 motor.

I'll take a well-built Open Light car over any PGT car any day of the week. PGT = pig heavy for any shell newer than the early 00's.

Of course that's only if you have to be in something AWD, which some people think they do. I would love to have an old RX-7 (or anything else fun and RWD) to thrash, but I wouldn't expect to be winning regionals overall. I think the right driver can win those regionals overall in a well-prepped Open Light car.

What is it specifically that you think prevents @wd cars from winning Regionals overall?
Power? shape of powerband? brakes? Gears? Steering?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Lack of interest among drivers capable of running at that level.

I'm a more "recent" rally guy. Utecht is pretty much the only one I can think of off the top of my head as long as I've been competing (3 years).

I'd suggest the first thing to leave on the sidelines is "with the right driver" discussion.
Second leave out any thought of a price ceiling.

Fast guys are fast guys, we're talking about new guys and absentee ralliests that likely aren't fast guys.

Limiting costs by tires numbers or other means. When cost enters the picture someone is making a socio/econmic judgement. How much is too much? What level of income are we talking? Arbitrarily say $30k a year. Budget around that...except one guy has a wife a 3 kids and the other guy is single and splits a condo with 3 other guys. Huge potential for difference in spending ability.

So an agressive driver shows up and the rule says he can only have 6 tires or 8 tires for the event. He runs out of rubber with 2 stages to go. Has to drop out because of that, after towing 2000 miles to the event. That guy will come back...not bloody likely. Or worse he doesn't drop out and has a horrific off due to failing grip.

Developing a car such as Dave is doing, or JV has done is fine. I'm all for that. Requiring a certain car because it is someones ideal is not so fine. Any restriction to protect/benefit one person is going to alienate another. People are funny like that. They like to make their own choices...good or bad.

1: Open Light car and 2WD cars have won overall regionals already.

2: Spec BMW cars would still be competing against the Merkur at least for a few years. My bigger point is to get the Scott Leonards and Roger Matthews not into VW's where they spend half their rally career DNFing and chasing reliability and into something they can just rally and drive. People could still build a Golf as it's still G2 or G5 for classing.

3: Everyone thinks the fast guy in their region is super talented. Too bad more of them won't travel out of their region for Max Attack events.

4: A built Legacy is probably within 50 lbs in weight as an Impreza and can use all the same components. 90-94 Legacys are more common and cheaper. I bet I could grab $250 cash and find one to buy that drives by this afternoon here in Colorado. I'd need at least $1000 for an Impreza. I like the nimbler 'feel' of the Impreza though myself. I've owned both for years.