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NoCoast
... we need to minimize towing distance ...

Minimize towing distance from where? Seattle? Denver? Miami? There are at least 5 good events in a reasonable tow distance from Seattle (particularly when Seattle people remember that towing to Merritt, BC is about the same as towing to The Dalles, OR). Maybe rallyists should move to where the events are.

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... entry fees ...

Aside from decreasing stage miles to lower sanction fee and insurance, I don't see how entry fees could go much lower. There is no fat that I can see in the events that I am involved with.

alan

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tipo158
Aside from decreasing stage miles to lower sanction fee and insurance, I don't see how entry fees could go much lower. There is no fat that I can see in the events that I am involved with.

I've always said that the smartest way to rally from Denver is to keep your car in Seattle... I don't want to live there but I'd happily fly out four or five times a year.

I know you wear glasses Alan but are you really that blind that you can't see any other fat?
T-shirts, days of scrutineering, fancy timing systems of which you need 5-6 for most events probably, all those workers and volunteers, road use fees for 50 miles of roads, awards parties, flying in stewards and RA officials, ambulances, ham stations, banquets, beer or bibles, etc.
CHCA manages entry fees of $150-200 and pays money back to competitors.

I guess it depends upon what you're trying to 'fix'. If it's getting a cool national championship with bad ass cars and television coverage and manufacturers and professional drivers then the goal is way different than if your trying to build a community of local real people that work 40 hours a week and have mortgages and children and want to rally 5 times a year without having to make such huge sacrifices.

I wonder how many 'professional' rally guys pay child support and are essentially missing fathers.

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NoCoast
...I'm not sure where that money is supposed to come from and don't believe in pie in ski ideas about 'sponsorship' and such things.

^ This. If it were so easy, all the series (which currently have a group of cars racing) would have prize funds...they don't.

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NoCoast
In the CHCA payout scheme the top 3 in rally get majority while everyone else gets some money back.

CHCA has two payout plans. There's the in-class payouts, which are determined by members of each class at the end of the season. Rally classes have for the last 3 - 5 years done 50% of the payout split amongst every competitor who took a checkered flag, and then an additional 20% to 1st, 15% to 2nd place, 10% to 3rd place. Of course with some of the events just breaking even and not enough paying spectators, those payouts have dropped quite a bit. Used to be you'd get at least half your money back even if you finished last, making for a $75 entry fee for the weekend.

Then, there's an overall payout. $15 of each entry goes into a pot for the top 5 fastest cars. 30% 1st, 25% 2nd, 20% 3rd, 15% 4th, & 10% 5th. I can't say this was the reason to try and make the Evo quick, but it certainly makes me push that little bit harder to catch other competitors even if in a comfortable spot in the rally class. FWIW, I think we had 2 rally cars (Evo & STi) in the top 5 at the Continental Divide Hill Climb a few weeks ago.

Dave

I figured 10k to be low. I seen your build Billy, actually watched pretty close sense I knew who you were, after meeting you at Autocity.

It isnt a ponzi scheme. Was thinking of seeing if my current oval track sponsors would throw a little into rally. But guys here dont seem to think its worth doing so I dont see the point in putting any effort into it.

Businesses seem to be thinking about advertising again and I thought this would be a good idea to help with entries. I grew up around oval track where promoters work there tails off to make sure the drivers get treated well. Never in 15 years have I heard a promoter or a tech guy not open minded about an idea to get more cars.

Jeff

There are always ways to improve or change things for the better and we need to keep looking at stuff. The Max Attack series has been a good example. It has increased attendance at some events, other events haven't seen enough of an increase to offset the cost. Most of the money went to the same guys and unfortunately the significant payout isn't very deep so in reality the guys struggling see nothing but slightly higher costs.

Getting a sponsor is always a noble quest, just never pans out very well. Sponsors tend to look for a return on their investment. Lucas for example has their name everywhere already so for a limited number of rally cars running they wouldn't get much back. Be better for them to find the one shining star and sponsor him individually. Rally isn't popular enough in the states to demand big money. Too many other venues with TV, spectators, large numbers of competitors and so on. Even NASCAR has lost teams, sponsors and viewers the last few years. Many organizers work hard to get the little sponsorship they do for the events, which helps with the cost to competitors. I'd guess they are pretty well worried about themselves and money so someone else needs to develope a 'class' and seek sponsorhip for it. It'll take a bunch of time, effort, the need for rejection and will probably not bear much in the way of fruit...sadly...

I don't see any real way to lower costs for the general population. No one is making any money sanctioning or organizing. I think the price is about as low as its going to be. Every individual has to decide if rally is worth it to them, and that holds true for organizers, volunters and competitors.

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Reamer
It isnt a ponzi scheme. Was thinking of seeing if my current oval track sponsors would throw a little into rally. But guys here dont seem to think its worth doing so I dont see the point in putting any effort into it.

I don't think anyone means to discourage you seeking out a series or event sponsor. But think about it for a bit. Why do the roundy round companies sponsor a series? Fans in the stands and racers who are dumping thousands into their cars which are all basically the same.

In rally, there's pretty much nobody spectating and everyone drives different cars, so what are the chances the roundy round shop owner will sell parts to the competitors.

IMO, you can blow smoke up the prospective sponsor's ass and maybe get a deal for an event or two, but if the business that's supposed to come from said sponsorship doesn't materialize, it won't be a lasting relationship.

Dave

Gene

I agree with you 100%. To come up with a series like Max attack for open light was my original goal. Then I got thinking about the drivers and who gets what. Anders posted in the other 2wd thread about paying for most improved or most consistent. I got thinking about how to pay the guys who really need the money to come back to the next rally. I come up with the cheap car idea because I figured it would cover all of these teams. Most dont buy many tires and I didnt figure guys would have to change much to buy in.

Now how to get sponsors was the next hurdle I hit. Then the association thing came to mind. You are correct the organizers dont have time to scout sponsors or can they lower cost to put the rally on. An assotiation would have time and can scout sponsors because thats what there job would be.This isnt a 3 race idea this is an all rallies idea. This is what I thought was a good idea that guys could grasp a hold of and brain storm to make it work. I really feel this could work even if it was a sponsor that just loved racing and donated to say he did it. I know from oval track that these guys do exist. We just have to convince them rally is the way to go.

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NoCoast
I know you wear glasses Alan but are you really that blind that you can't see any other fat?
T-shirts, days of scrutineering, fancy timing systems of which you need 5-6 for most events probably, all those workers and volunteers, road use fees for 50 miles of roads, awards parties, flying in stewards and RA officials, ambulances, ham stations, banquets, beer or bibles, etc.
CHCA manages entry fees of $150-200 and pays money back to competitors.

I was talking about the regional rallies. Some of the fat that you mention is more-or-less paid for by the national entrants.

All of those workers and volunteers pay their own way. So do the ham guys.

I am pretty sure that ambulances and stewards are a requirement for the insurance (stewards make sure the event follows the rules that the insurance company has agreed to insure). Same goes for scrutineering (which doesn't go for days).

Are you proposing that events run on roads without paying for their use?

I don't know why you are comparing rally costs to hillclimb costs. It takes more effort (so it is more expensive) to put a rally on. Duh!

alan

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Reamer
I know from oval track that these guys do exist. We just have to convince them rally is the way to go.

Put them in a car for a spectator/media stage, or bring them out to a testing facility or goof around day or whatever. The biggest hurdle is that roundy round cars are fast and make great noises (V8s). Open-light cars are under powered and over gripped. Remove two drive wheels and you may get somewhere, or find a surface that really exhibits the type of car's you're pitching...maybe bring the guys out for a day on an ice or snow track.

I rode in a highish spec OL car once. 2.5RS motor, STi 6-speed & DCDD with 4.44s, RS&SP suspension, and I think it was ~2800 lbs. It started out as a privateer Open Class car, but after motor troubles it was de-spec'd to OL. It was not exciting riding shotgun (admittedly I was on the street, not a special stage) and I'm sure it would've been even less so to watch it from the side of the road, not a great "sell" to the potential sponsor IMO.

Other potential issue that pops into mind is that if you're asking someone to sponsor the lowest cost cars, doesn't that also mean those folks will be the least likely to spend money making their cars faster?

Dave

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tipo158
I don't know why you are comparing rally costs to hillclimb costs. It takes more effort (so it is more expensive) to put a rally on. Duh!

I think part of the comparison is simply if the regional events are held in more of the "rally in a box" format where just one or two roads are used, that the costs should start to more closely resemble a hillclimb than a 8 or 10 stage rally event. i.e. instead of having 2 rallies that use 4 roads each (which may be the same ones?), why not have 2 rallies each use just 2 roads...or at least I think that's what he's getting at in the Doo Wops thread.

I'll admit I know nothing about putting a rally on, but I've been on the hillclimb board for 3 years now so have a general idea of how much of a PITA and thankless job it can be. Our hillclimbs rely on volunteers and we also have similar issues with costs for obtaining insurance, permits, road fees, ambulance, and even police/sheriffs for some events. We have one race now where the entry fee doubles because the county has decided that they can charge the group nearly $10k for the use of 5 miles of a road.

Dave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2011 07:26PM by DaveK.

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DaveK

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Reamer
I know from oval track that these guys do exist. We just have to convince them rally is the way to go.

Put them in a car for a spectator/media stage, or bring them out to a testing facility or goof around day or whatever. The biggest hurdle is that roundy round cars are fast and make great noises (V8s). Open-light cars are under powered and over gripped. Remove two drive wheels and you may get somewhere, or find a surface that really exhibits the type of car's you're pitching...maybe bring the guys out for a day on an ice or snow track.

I rode in a highish spec OL car once. 2.5RS motor, STi 6-speed & DCDD with 4.44s, RS&SP suspension, and I think it was ~2800 lbs. It started out as a privateer Open Class car, but after motor troubles it was de-spec'd to OL. It was not exciting riding shotgun (admittedly I was on the street, not a special stage) and I'm sure it would've been even less so to watch it from the side of the road, not a great "sell" to the potential sponsor IMO.

Other potential issue that pops into mind is that if you're asking someone to sponsor the lowest cost cars, doesn't that also mean those folks will be the least likely to spend money making their cars faster?

Dave

Personally I think any rally car on the street is boring as hell... they are slow even the 'fast' ones. For rally yeah they are real fast, for street cars they aren't even in the ballpark of being exciting. 300'ish wheel power is really nothing these days.


You're looking at sponsorship the wrong way. Return on investment and exposure is all that matters, you're not going to really get either in rally. Whether you take them out for a spin and slide all over the place and put a giant smile on there face.... doesn't mean its going to help them advertise their product/company.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2011 07:59PM by czwalga.

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DaveK
I'll admit I know nothing about putting a rally on, but I've been on the hillclimb board for 3 years now so have a general idea of how much of a PITA and thankless job it can be. Our hillclimbs rely on volunteers and we also have similar issues with costs for obtaining insurance, permits, road fees, ambulance, and even police/sheriffs for some events. We have one race now where the entry fee doubles because the county has decided that they can charge the group nearly $10k for the use of 5 miles of a road.

Maybe we should exchange notes at some point. I have wondered how hillclimbs are able to get by with such low entry fees.

alan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2011 10:15PM by tipo158.

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Reamer
Jason Smith finished 3rd at BRS he could of made $475.00 or more based on the pay out i showed before. Thats 2 tires and gas for the next rally.

Jeff,

I ride silly seat with J. Smith. We were running 2nd overall after day 1 and late into day 2 before the transmission got stuck in gear and we lost almost 4 minutes on stage. We were running about 1 second/mile behind Martin Donnelly in his EVO IX all day on day 2 until that. We probably would have had a chance to catch him if we hadn't lost that huge chunk of time.

We would be excluded from your series based on rear LSD and suspension (DMS 50s).


For anyone else saying they think an Open Light car is boring, they haven't ridden with or seen a driver worth riding with or watching.

We won both regionals at STPR overall this year. The car goes plenty fast enough when we need it to.

Grant, Grant, Grant...I'm going to suggest an apology to Alan. That was pretty uncalled for. I wear glasses also and I don't see any fat at events either.

Nationals are and should be big deals. Like the big family Xmas dinner, you don't serve hot dogs. Yes we put on the 'Ritz' as best we can. We have the biggest and best US rally has, people spending large dollars to travel large distances...and they pay a higher entry fee...and we still put on a nice regional and no regional competitor ever gets short changed out here.

So..T shirts..yes that gets put in the budget, even regional if we can. Some get sold, most get given to the poor stupid volunteers who give up a whole weekend, maybe stand in the weather for up to 20 hours to help you have fun. What do they get, maybe a Tshirt and hopefully a meal. Pretty cheap wages. Some don't even make it make for the meal. There have been several events I drove hours one way, rented a room, scrutineered and got not a f'n thing. One of those evenys I won't go to anymore.

Scrutineering for days?? Really? Scrutineering costs nothing, we charge nothing. Stay late to help the ralliests that can't tell time, or got caught in traffic, or broke down on the way. Missed more than one dinner or party or that crap. then some people, like old sight hampered Alan, get up early to help the guys who had issues at tech get sorted out in the morning before the start. We could easily just kick their asses to the curb at tech, but we consistantly make every effort to get every competitor thru..national or regional, big bucks or no bucks. We don't discriminate.

Dinners.. see the Tshirt rant..people like to visit, see old friends, swap stories. Many times Subaru just tosses a credit card to the caterer to cover dinners. They indirectly sponsored the events. We didn't have a check to spend arbitrarily, but we got a huge, important feature paid for.

Fancy timing systems...ours are older than dirt. They were the first upgrade from sundials. Haven't been replaced forever and some timing is still done with cheap digital stop watches. No fat there, seriously. Blind Alan again has sat at the whole event in his car scoring the event on his laptop. And then we have sat and gone over every score card by hand, then have had to actually assemble the trophies ourselves while Ron Barker prints the results on his own printer...No fat there.

Stewards are a requirement, we live with that. They pretty much work for nothing other than travel and room. Hams, sweep, advance, again volunteers that don't raise the cost. Sometimes they get a breakfast, sometimes help with gas. Next time you go off, pass on the sweeps and have a wrecker come out from town...no fat there.

Road fees, yup they are there. Since we don't keep that money it can't be considered fat. It is an expense. Varies regionally and by road ownership. Hire a road grader to smooth out the damage we cause, throw in a couple dozen yards of crushed rock for giggles. Isn't fat.

Comparing hill climbs to rally is an apples and oranges thing. Insurance, sanctioning fees are not the same. Most competitors seem to like several different roads to run on, repeating a stage once is fine but after that it starts to get a bit old. Anders rally in a box is fine for a new organizer to get his feet wet, but it ain't the format for a Div3.

As to the Ponzi scheme comment, I think on that you are essentially correct. Passing the hat amoung competitors does nothing but raise everyones cost, everyone being the group that is trying to get lower costs. Yeah someone gets slightly financially improved at the end but at the poor guy, slow guys expense. Donner party comes to mind for some odd reason.

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czwalga
You're looking at sponsorship the wrong way. Return on investment and exposure is all that matters, you're not going to really get either in rally. Whether you take them out for a spin and slide all over the place and put a giant smile on there face.... doesn't mean its going to help them advertise their product/company.

Preaching to the choir here - look what I said a few posts back:

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DaveK
IMO, you can blow smoke up the prospective sponsor's ass and maybe get a deal for an event or two, but if the business that's supposed to come from said sponsorship doesn't materialize, it won't be a lasting relationship.

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Jard
For anyone else saying they think an Open Light car is boring, they haven't ridden with or seen a driver worth riding with or watching.

I stand by my statement, especially here in Denver, the land of 15% horsepower loss due to the thin air. Most OL cars have stock subie engines, and I think the most powerful of those was about 165hp...or a whopping 95hp to the wheels. The car was flat out slow in the acceleration department, no two ways about it.

If your driver is good enough to push an OL car to the overall podium, the conditions were absolutely trecherous (I could understand an OL car doing great at SnoDrift for example), or the other drivers pale in comparison.

Getting back to the reason for the observation - attracting series (or sub-series) sponsorship. F1 and NASCAR and other pro motorsports attract sponsors because they are faster and noisier than most road going cars and they're dicing it up and crashing all over the place. You can also sit in a stadium and grab a beer. For sponsorship to work, you need to captivate fans and keep them coming back. Rally makes this difficult because you see just one car at a time and you have to head to some obscure location. So, if you were Joe Average spectator and you put in the effort to go to a rally, what would you rather see?

A ) 300whp Open class
B ) 100whp Open Light
C ) 200whp 2wd car

Personally, I love seeing the 'little' guys just tearing it up driving so hard that parts are falling off the car...but I am a sucker for super aggressive antilag too. I just don't see how further restricting the lower powered cars is going to make them any more attractive to potential sponsors, it just makes them more attractive to the guys who think there is no hope of doing well because their bank account is smaller than someone elses.

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tipo158
Maybe we should exchange notes at some point. I have wondered how hillclimbs are able to get by with such low entry fees.

Sure thing! I'm not the details guy (just a class rep), but I'm happy to help if I can.

Dave