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Dazed_Driver
I would think that anything you can do with paper towels, duct tape, zip ties, windex, water, a flashlight, a hammer, and a prybar should be fair game.


So, you could open up the hood and look, clean windows, tape things back into place, zip tie underbody/wires etc, wash parts with water/fill radiator, bang body panels back or provide wheel clearance, etc.

I like this.

I can tell you we've asked competitors in front of us multiple times this year if we could zip tie a bumper back on (or something similar). I have a zip tie in my co-driver bag but the rules say we can't touch the car with it in the control...

I suppose under the current rules we could still be penalized if a steward/control worker/etc. witnesses it and decides they need to enforce that rule. IMHO, that's just silly. If we are out of the car with enough time to see the bumper needs to get put back on and the team in front of us is standing there BS'ing with us, I don't see an issue as long as you aren't blocking the road in any way.

I do think I would stop at "changing a tire." Anything else that doesn't involve taking parts off...sure...no problem.

I know a lot of you say "well you shouldn't have time to do that in a control," but that's not always reality.

There seems to be a clear divide being drawn between the RA camp and the NASA camp.

Since NASA is about going to have fun in the woods safely maybe we should just do the split and do it in the interest of making it easier and more friendly for newbs? Highlight the distinction between RA and let it be trumpeted as being more professional over at RA.

Everyone knows that us NRS guys are all knuckle dragging kooks... we already have some of the friendlier ewbie rules already surrounding what vehicle to drive? At the end of the day, I want to having a beer with everyone at the party and not hear of some BS that X blew up his motor because he ran low oil and I had a bottle right there to give him from my kit in the car. Hell, I would pour it into his car even if it was Jason and Jared

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EricW
There seems to be a clear divide being drawn between the RA camp and the NASA camp.

Doesn't there always? (particularly when you look for it)

I think the basic principle of rule changes/application starts with understanding why the rule exists in the first place. As I said before, one of the people who wrote the initial CARS rulebook told me directly that the control zone rules were founded in safety of the crew and volunteers.

Considering that the penalty for working on a car in a control zone, under CARS rules, is exclusion - the authors of the rulebook must have thought this to be a serious matter.

Interesting that both RA and NRS are both 10 minute penalties for the same infraction. Still a heafty infraction and an indication that this is something SOMEONE felt strongly about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2011 12:49PM by Morison.

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Morison

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EricW
There seems to be a clear divide being drawn between the RA camp and the NASA camp.

Doesn't there always? (particularly when you look for it)

I think the basic principle of rule changes/application starts with understanding why the rule exists in the first place. As I said before, one of the people who wrote the initial CARS rulebook told me directly that the control zone rules were founded in safety of the crew and volunteers.

Considering that the penalty for working on a car in a control zone, under CARS rules, is exclusion - the authors of the rulebook must have thought this to be a serious matter.

And to that point there is no "No backing in a control zone" rule in NASA. I had only worked RA events and thought that rule was a little nit-picky until I was working a NASA finish control and damn near got run down by an irishman backing very quickly into the control to complain about his time (he was wrong )

Urination. Drivers to the left, navies to the right. Everything else should have been taken care of...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2011 01:42PM by ihbobry.

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EricW
There seems to be a clear divide being drawn between the RA camp and the NASA camp.

Since NASA is about going to have fun in the woods safely maybe we should just do the split and do it in the interest of making it easier and more friendly for newbs? Highlight the distinction between RA and let it be trumpeted as being more professional over at RA.

I see no clear divide and am not sure what you are even saying there...

I think the easiest solution is to define the control zone as being the space from the ATC board to the start board. If you have a delay and are declaring or running 50 cars up to check in and then dicking around for 50 minutes but are outside of the physical control zone, then you aren't in the control and can do whatever you please, even though you are checked in. Might fuck the front runners a bit, but I'm sure they won't complain too much.

I also think that only one direction of motion should be allowed in a control zone (now going with the physical space) unless directed or led in reverse direction by a control marshall. If you pull into the control, discover a flat tire, you have to take the start on your assigned minute, pull over, change the tire. Tanner's had to do it and lose time on stage, why shouldn't you. You are the one who should have checked tire pressures or anything else prior to entering the control.

At Rally Colorado one year one teams car was dead on the start. The competitor behind him gave him a push over the stage start line, enough to bump start the engine and allow him to get through the stage and back to service.

I think too many people are confused here about what constitutes being in the control zone. Once you enter the control zone, you should not have time to do anything. Outside the boards, I am for letting guys do what they want. Once the car is phisically inside the boards, all things are off limits.

interestingly, both NASA and RA extend the 'control zone' to all cars that have checked in. CARS doesn't.
WRC regs state cars are in parc fermé "from the moment they enter and/or check-in at a control area until they leave it."
I can't find language in the WRC rules regarding reversing or penalties for servicing.

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NoCoast
but are outside of the physical control zone, then you aren't in the control and can do whatever you please, even though you are checked in.

Dumb rule, IMHO...why would you penalize only the first 5 - 8 cars? Either say you are checked into the control and can not do anything (like it is now) or loosen the rule so everyone is on the same footing.

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I also think that only one direction of motion should be allowed in a control zone (now going with the physical space) unless directed or led in reverse direction by a control marshall. If you pull into the control, discover a flat tire, you have to take the start on your assigned minute, pull over, change the tire. Tanner's had to do it and lose time on stage, why shouldn't you. You are the one who should have checked tire pressures or anything else prior to entering the control.

I have no issue with this at all. I would support a rule that said servicing is free in a control zone as long as all 4 tires stay on the ground and you use only what you have carried into the control in your car (and you can go get a big hammer (rock) in the woods) or a competitor's car. So you aren't going to be changing a tire or axle, but you can fix a broken bumper with a zip tie or tighten a hose clamp.

I think the "as long as you don't impede other traffic/competitors" part is very important as well as a penalty for lost road position as a result of starting late.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2011 02:10PM by Jard.

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phlat65
I think too many people are confused here about what constitutes being in the control zone. Once you enter the control zone, you should not have time to do anything. Outside the boards, I am for letting guys do what they want. Once the car is phisically inside the boards, all things are off limits.

Then CARS is the only sanctioning body that, currently, agrees with you. Under either RA or NRS once you've checked in you can't touch the car.

If an event is running to schedule, this shouldn't be much of an issue. If there is a delay, it is very much an issue. (IE: you pull up as car 30, car 1 is still at the start and the crew is out of the car so you turn your car off. Your co-driver makes the hike to turn in the card and checks you in. The cars start going and when you try to start your car it doesn't fire. You can't open the hood to whack the solenoid or check the battery connections or pour water on the coil that is failing from overheating. Then again - neither could the first car on the road.)

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Jard

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NoCoast
but are outside of the physical control zone, then you aren't in the control and can do whatever you please, even though you are checked in.

Dumb rule, IMHO...why would you penalize only the first 5 - 8 cars? Either say you are checked into the control and can not do anything (like it is now) or loosen the rule so everyone is on the same footing.

How is that penalizing? And really, I can't think of an event I've been to where there was room for more than 3-4 cars between ATC board and start line. And yeah, you're a front runner, you might not be able to work on your car if there is a delay. So really the only fair solution is to not allow anything once you've checked in period. Because if you say any work is allowed within a control zone then you will have people that will use that to gain a competitive advantage by deciding to quickly 'check' something right after they pull up so they can gain an extra minute dust window. Ripple effect would result in everyone trying to do so and causing hysteria and delays so they only logical thing to do is allow nothing in the control zone. The only 'fair' way is to not allow anything for anyone. The compromise if you allow if outside a physical space that the top teams might get screwed. In my mind, they aren't the ones who need to work on something. Then again, the back runners are also not likely to file protests when someone is trying to fix something during a delay even though they are technically in a control. IE. Nick Taylor's fixing or attempting to fix a broken strut at 100AW when stage was delayed and eventually cancelled after Ramana crashed.

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I can't think of an event I've been to where there was room for more than 3-4 cars between ATC board and start line.

That doesn't make it so. I've been to 3 - 4 events this year where it's more than 3 - 4 cars that would be affected.

I understand your concerns here about teams trying to abuse whatever rule is in place.

You have to ask yourself:
1.) Is this rule enforceable?
2.) Is it currently enforced?

For the events I've been to in the last 2 - 3 years I'm going to say that I've never seen "no servicing in a control" enforced and I have seen plenty of "service" in controls.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2011 02:44PM by Jard.

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NoCoast
How is that penalizing? And really, I can't think of an event I've been to where there was room for more than 3-4 cars between ATC board and start line.

Really, Grant, you should run some more rallies

I have seen plenty of stages where there was room to cram a bunch of cars between start board and the ATC board. When there isn't room to fit all of the cars in, they start lining them up two or three wide.

alan

I think the enforcement of it now varies based upon competitors. Most of us don't care. Run competitively against someone like Ole Holter, who apparently knows the rulebook inside out and will use it to gain any competitive advantage he can, and see if you can get away with it. Nothing against or singling out Ole, just first person that came to mind that I've seen inquiries/protests on the board from. Ironically, also saw at least one protest when he was riding with Iorio for them dicking around in controls to get an extra dust minute. Don't know outcomes from either though since didn't involve me or our team...

I have been in a "control zone" for well over an hour... It's not like it's moving along all the time...