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jimmy
OK, none of you guys have talked about moving your cars (that are maybe jacked up in the air) to let the emergency vehicles get by (which might be the reason for the delay).

Discuss further.........

press on,

We've mentioned several times about not blocking competitors or emergency vehicles. The start crew should in theory know if there is an emergency vehicle inbound and move everyone out of the way. And the start crew should have full authority to tell someone to get and keep out of the way.

PS ..people need to always keep to the side of the road making room for other traffic. Damitio and I had to literally drive in the ditch to get around dumasses parked in the middle of the road going into a control...but that's another story.

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Morison
Also untrue.
The crews from the top three cars expressed concerns about the cattle on the stages.

Yahu. Still not thoroughly convinced on this one Keith, it's not the first time even since I've been rallying that the top teams have done a wonderful job of cancelling a nice long stage for the rest of us due to "their" decision. As you said, cows are to be expected on Helmer...

Would the stage have been stopped if the first 3 didn't say something? Unlikely.

I like the CARS way of going about controls... while it might not be "fair" for the very front runners, the front runners may just have the required forethought to plan ahead before checking into a control compared to newer teams, and as such, I don't see it as a big deal.

Cows on stage..just have advance ask them to moooove over??


The whole thing about being fair.. really very little is. More about keeping unfair to a minimum.

So,
Control zone is the area between the advance and start signs...forget the 3rd down the road.
If in the control zone no nothing other than a look and a shake.
If needed the cars in the control zone can back out for work under guidance of the start crew...if there is room. If no room then Force Majour and a big penalty. Another penalty if a competitor or EM vehicle is blocked.
No conveniently sacrificing ones self by requesting a different start order if you have issues. Start on time, in order or take the penalty. Penalties can always be dismissed later, they are just numbers on paper. A competitive advantage is much harder to mitigate and judge. Most of us have caught a car on stage, some at speed or some wounded. It happens. Feigning a 'sprained ankle' and letting the rest of the guys go on is BS in rally.

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Aaron Luptak
1. Once you've checked in to the control, no servicing, regardless of physical location. Fair to everyone, but hard to enforce in the instance of delayed stage start and line of cars checked in.

agree. the current rule seems pretty simple and easy to enforce. aren't we already telling the new guys in the back not to worry about penalties anyway?

The way I read the RA book:
"All control zones are considered Parcs Fermé (refer to Article 7.5.I)."

From Parcs Fermé :
"If the organizers or the stewards consider that a car is so defective that
normal road traffic may be affected, the car must be repaired in the presence
of a rally official. The minutes needed for repair will be penalized similar to
late arrival at a time control."

Granted the Parcs Fermé also says competitors need to leave their vehicles (a bit of a rule mismatch) but I would think you could argue that a repair is allowed for safety purposes.

For the CARS rule: I don't think that the rules should be more "fair" for some versus others based on running order. Everyone should be held to the same rules and the restrictions that come with them regardless of start order or experience. This makes enforcement easy.

Who is responsible for enforcing this? There are many rules that are enforced by competitors. I've seen people ask another competitor if they mind if they open a trunk or other during delays and most people don't have an issue with it because we are out there to have fun.

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Aaron Luptak
The way I read the RA book:
"All control zones are considered Parcs Fermé (refer to Article 7.5.I)."

From Parcs Fermé :
"If the organizers or the stewards consider that a car is so defective that
normal road traffic may be affected, the car must be repaired in the presence
of a rally official. The minutes needed for repair will be penalized similar to
late arrival at a time control."

Granted the Parcs Fermé also says competitors need to leave their vehicles (a bit of a rule mismatch) ...

You are right. This will get fixed.

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Who is responsible for enforcing this?

Both the competitors and the control marshals.

One competitor was kinda dick-ish when he passed us on a transit. The next stage ended up being delayed and the co-driver started working on repairing some damage from the previous stage. While he was doing this, someone walked up to him and asked him if he knew what he was doing was in violation of the rules and he said 'yes' and continued working on the car. I had no qualms at all when I submitted an inquiry.

But, ideally, the marshals are noting this kind of stuff in the logs and then scoring catches it when the logs are turned in.

alan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2011 12:46PM by tipo158.

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KTurner
For the CARS rule: I don't think that the rules should be more "fair" for some versus others based on running order. Everyone should be held to the same rules and the restrictions that come with them regardless of start order or experience

It depends on the reason behind the rule in the first place. In this case it is about personal safety and the inequity of time allowed to work on the car is a byproduct.

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This makes enforcement easy.

Not really. One year at Oregon the entire field was stacked at a control after an opening car rolled. (must have seen a cow) After checking in at least one car took off to the rest stop while waiting and the last car was no where near in sight of the control workers. (I think the backest of the pack was being held at the rest stop about a mile down the road actually)

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Who is responsible for enforcing this?

It must be event officials. If left to the teams you would have 'good guys' getting away with murder and the 'pricks' being slammed for every little thing. If two teams came to me with an inquiry about servicing in a parc fermé the first think I'd want is confirmation from a control worker. Without that I don't think I'd let it get too far.

How much fun are we going to add by letting people work on their cars in a control zone ?

How much confusion / rule enforcement problems will be be adding by allowing this?

I think a slight tweak could be in order.

While in a control zone you may work only on video and audio recording devices (battery, memory card change, moving cameras) no work beyond inspection is permitted. You may retrieve personal items (snacks, drinks, cell phones, cameras, batteries, supps, books, maps, etc)

that way you can Open the trunk, hood, or rear doors to "inspect" or to fetch personal items . ie backpack , gator aid. grab batteries, move a camera , etc, etc.

So that would open up, looking under the hood, but you aren't allowed to do any thing beyond that. so maybe you see you have no brake fluid or motor oil , sure you can borrow some from someone else, but you will have to wait until you are out of the control zone (or maybe to you its worth a 10 minute penalty to add oil, power steering, re-attatch that spark plug wire, etc )

mostly what people want to do is get a snack, drink, or mess with a camera

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Morison

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This makes enforcement easy.

Not really. One year at Oregon the entire field was stacked at a control after an opening car rolled. (must have seen a cow) After checking in at least one car took off to the rest stop while waiting and the last car was no where near in sight of the control workers. (I think the backest of the pack was being held at the rest stop about a mile down the road actually)

is the point: the people being held at the rest stop or the person leaving a control (another issue in itself?). my point was that it makes application easy, no one needs to check to see if the car is on or out of the boards.

finish boards seem to randomly change location sometimes do control boards?. I could see people sitting outside of controls if they know there is going to be a delay. what if there is only a small gap between you and the car in front and the control board "gets moved". the extension of the control area via check in to a control is a lot simpler than a physical location (seems ripe for abuse).

for snacks and stuff, don't put them in your trunk. didn't someone have a provision for 2 door hatch backs if it was the safety equipment?

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A1337STI
or rear doors to "inspect" or to fetch personal items . ie backpack , gator aid. grab batteries, move a camera , etc, etc.

The way the current NASA and RA rules are written you can open your rear doors in a control. I'm not sure why you keep thinking you can't...

Penalty Phobia ...

I really don't see a problem with inspection, including opening the trunk and or hood. as long as there are still penalties for delaying the start.

No servicing yourself ever.

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NoCoast
No servicing yourself ever.

that's why my GF is my Navigator.

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simoniac
I think Anders posted this just for his personal entertainment.

That's what I got from the original post, I was expecting replies like handjobs or Michael Jackson impersonations

not all this serious stuff

though the cows have really helped, nothing better than a nice helping of cows

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NoCoast
No servicing yourself ever.

never?

never ever?




forever never?

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12xalt

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simoniac
I think Anders posted this just for his personal entertainment.

That's what I got from the original post, I was expecting replies like handjobs or Michael Jackson impersonations

not all this serious stuff

Actually, the discussion has been helpful. After I discovered the philosophical problem with controls and parc ferme (and after I spoke with the guy who wrote those rules 38 years ago), I needed to re-write "what's allowed in controls" anyway, and throwing this out here brought up some interesting thoughts. I agree with some of the ideas, and disagree with others. So, the new rules are written, and NRS controls will be more fun in the future.

Part of the new rules state that EVERYTHING gets bedazzled.

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.