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NoCoast
There's a rally car here in Colorado with a new 3.0 H6 in it and a rallycross one with the 3.3. Didn't Anders' car have a 3.3 in it? Seems like it'd make it heavier in all the wrong places. The front clearance is way tight in an Impreza with those also.

A kid we rallycross with in the Washington, DC Region has a 3.3 stuffed in a '93 Impreza wagon. It's OMG torque wherever you want it all the time.

You are right, it is pretty tight up front though, would have to keep a full bumper beam on it for sure and maybe build a subframe that protects the rad a little better.

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john vanlandingham
Alberta BHP...

I guess it's sort of like Washington rally suspension eh? It's s00per bitchin', until the ears bend, shit breaks, and the cost of shipping back and forth has you at the purchase price of 50mm DMS'.

OH NO I DID'ANT!

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john vanlandingham
Alberta BHP...

It's probably the exact same as Colorado horsepower.
There are two really easy ways to get to a super inflated hp rating.
Overestimate altitude adjustment.
Underestimate the drivetrain losses.
Report crank horsepower.
Lets say you have 100 whp on the dyno around 5000 feet
1: 4% per 1000 feet loss. 30% powertrain loss = 156 crank hp
2: 6% per 1000 feet loss. 40% powertrain loss = 171 crank hp
3: 8% per 1000 feet loss. 45% powertrain loss = 191 crank hp

Now lets say were at a shop at around 5500 feet. Let's just round that last one up to 6000 feet. Woot! We now have 203 HP engine! Yeah!!!
Now we go get on Nasioc and show the dyno sheets and the happy owner posts how bad ass his car is and people flock to us to tune their cars too!

In case no one realizes, I am actually kidding for once. Honestly, I just grabbed some info off the interwebz, it must be true!

The point is, I'm sure a relatively high "spec" of OL car should be competitive with a PGT WRX. It's not "impossible" to build power out of a 2.5L poobaru is all I was pointing out Is it the best solution? No. Would I do it? No. But it could be done!

I'd suspect if RA felt an OL car would match a PGT for acceleration they wouldn't allow novice in one an not the other...just a hunch.

Here's what an extra 80 lb ft of tq gets you...

.

Repeat this every corner or hill on a 10 mile stage....

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heymagic
I'd suspect if RA felt an OL car would match a PGT for acceleration they wouldn't allow novice in one an not the other...just a hunch.

But... by making OL a regional only class they sort of, kind of, limit the spending and keep the 'maxi' builds out of the picture.

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HiTempguy

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john vanlandingham
Alberta BHP...

I guess it's sort of like Washington rally suspension eh? It's s00per bitchin', until the ears bend, shit breaks, and the cost of shipping back and forth has you at the purchase price of 50mm DMS'.

OH NO I DID'ANT!

Is that supposed to be funny?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
heymagic
I'd suspect if RA felt an OL car would match a PGT for acceleration they wouldn't allow novice in one an not the other...just a hunch.

Here's what an extra 80 lb ft of tq gets you... youtube.

Repeat this every corner or hill on a 10 mile stage....

Comments on the video say the cav was supercharged? No cavalier pulls a 14.1 stock. The civic was pulling a 15.9. That's apples to oranges there.



And about your previous comment about an EVO running 9k. That's probably the best OL car there. Run an EVO drivetrain in some Hyundai body. There's plenty of N/A tuning of the 4G motor out there and it's better for rev's. Combine that with a proper final drive and you'd have a killer car. Pretty much a poor man's S2000.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2011 10:49AM by BillyElliot.

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BillyElliot

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heymagic
I'd suspect if RA felt an OL car would match a PGT for acceleration they wouldn't allow novice in one an not the other...just a hunch.

Here's what an extra 80 lb ft of tq gets you... youtube.

Repeat this every corner or hill on a 10 mile stage....

Comments on the video say the cav was supercharged? No cavalier pulls a 14.1 stock. The civic was pulling a 15.9. That's apples to oranges there.



And about your previous comment about an EVO running 9k. That's probably the best OL car there. Run an EVO drivetrain in some Hyundai body. There's plenty of N/A tuning of the 4G motor out there and it's better for rev's. Combine that with a proper final drive and you'd have a killer car. Pretty much a poor man's S2000.

Hey billy, a 9000 rpm motor is going to want a proper real close ratio gearset or it will be a miserable dog..

Find us a link to a gearset with like ratios suitable for a 9k motor like:
2.25,
1.53,
1.16,
1.0
,0.84

There are multiple choices, actually a confusing array for rwd boxes.
But I don't worry about foofy classes invented just so guys cam claim some sort of victory, so i don't know if there's a Misterrbitch gearset that might be acceptable, or a Subie gearset that is close enough that a peaky engine isn't going to fall on its face every single gearchange..
Share what you know.

And, then there's problem of a final drive ratio easily available, and affordable to turn that 9000 rpm into acceleration. Do you know where one can get a Subie or Misterbitchy 4.88 or 5.1? For both axles?

That's the problem of n.a. 4wd cars.

That's why turbos are so popular: they can fake it since the motor makes the torque.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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BillyElliot

Quote
heymagic
I'd suspect if RA felt an OL car would match a PGT for acceleration they wouldn't allow novice in one an not the other...just a hunch.

Here's what an extra 80 lb ft of tq gets you... youtube.

Repeat this every corner or hill on a 10 mile stage....

Comments on the video say the cav was supercharged? No cavalier pulls a 14.1 stock. The civic was pulling a 15.9. That's apples to oranges there.



And about your previous comment about an EVO running 9k. That's probably the best OL car there. Run an EVO drivetrain in some Hyundai body. There's plenty of N/A tuning of the 4G motor out there and it's better for rev's. Combine that with a proper final drive and you'd have a killer car. Pretty much a poor man's S2000.

No its not apples to oranges...similar cars, similar horsepower, but the Cavy is boosted and because of that makes a massive more amount of torque. You can see it just pull the Honda. That is the exact same result with a PGT vs OL car. Maybe you can get within a few hp of the PGT with an NA car but you won't get the torque. The OL car will lose ground every time it has to go thru the gears.

Now if someone built an EVO and could turn big revs and had the gearing to support that then the gap might narrow rapidly. Subes won't live at the revs needed that I've seen. Mitsu might and other certainly will but then you have to actually make an OL out of something that wasn't AWD to start with. That almost always means failure.

JV is 100 times correct...NA needs revs and great gearing. Boosted cars have the foregiveness of torque. When you're talking 50-100 lbs of extra torque that is quite noticable and you can live with crappier gearing. That is what makes the Volvo and Merkur so appealing. Boosted, reliable motors AND great available gears. Best of both worlds.

On dry ground the OL cars can't beat a good G2 car...heck most PGT cars can't beat a good G2 car for that matter.

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heymagic

On dry ground the OL drivers can't beat a good G2 driver...heck most PGT driver's can't beat a good G2 driver for that matter.

Prettttty sure this is what you meant Gene :p It isn't the car that is causing the results you see...

I'm pretty sure Gene was talking car vs. car without the driver as a factor. I'm not sure I'd disagree with him. Even on the world scene 2wd cars have been able to run with the WRC pack on tarmac.

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john vanlandingham

Hey billy, a 9000 rpm motor is going to want a proper real close ratio gearset or it will be a miserable dog..

Find us a link to a gearset with like ratios suitable for a 9k motor like:
2.25,
1.53,
1.16,
1.0
,0.84

Those gears are trash for a 9k motor. You need a 7:1 final drive to go 113mph in 5th. Must be some dem derping turbin gurs of yurs.

To run at 9k you need something like:
1st 3.07
2nd 2.105
3rd 1.652
4th 1.385
5th 1.21
Final 4.9

Can order that whole gearset off the shelf for $1700 for my Honda. I sort of did that, but I'm just running OEM 1st/2nd, bit longer 3,4,5 (1.695/1.384/1.21) with a stock 4.4 final and it cost me $700 to spin to 8300.

Google can't find me a close ratio EVO gearset, doens't mean it's not out there. But I'm sure it costs big bucks. I was just saying that an EVO motor would be better to build N/A than a Subaru motor. But at that point where you are spending so much money, might as well move to SP or Open class.


[/quote]
And, then there's problem of a final drive ratio easily available, and affordable to turn that 9000 rpm into acceleration. Do you know where one can get a Subie or Misterbitchy 4.88 or 5.1? For both axles?

That's the problem of n.a. 4wd cars.

That's why turbos are so popular: they can fake it since the motor makes the torque.[/quote]

5.09:1 final drive for EVO right here but doesn't work too well with a stock drivetrain spinning to 9k. Will work spinning to 7k:
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/Tomioka/Drivetrain/Ring__and_Pinion_Gears/EVO_Final_Drive/17719

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BillyElliot

Quote
john vanlandingham

Hey billy, a 9000 rpm motor is going to want a proper real close ratio gearset or it will be a miserable dog..

Find us a link to a gearset with like ratios suitable for a 9k motor like:
2.25,
1.53,
1.16,
1.0
,0.84

Those gears are trash for a 9k motor. You need a 7:1 final drive to go 113mph in 5th. Must be some dem derping turbin gurs of yurs.

To run at 9k you need something like:
1st 3.07
2nd 2.105
3rd 1.652
4th 1.385
5th 1.21
Final 4.9

Can order that whole gearset off the shelf for $1700 for my Honda. I sort of did that, but I'm just running OEM 1st/2nd, bit longer 3,4,5 (1.695/1.384/1.21) with a stock 4.4 final and it cost me $700 to spin to 8300.

Google can't find me a close ratio EVO gearset, doens't mean it's not out there. But I'm sure it costs big bucks. I was just saying that an EVO motor would be better to build N/A than a Subaru motor. But at that point where you are spending so much money, might as well move to SP or Open class.

And, then there's problem of a final drive ratio easily available, and affordable to turn that 9000 rpm into acceleration. Do you know where one can get a Subie or Misterbitchy 4.88 or 5.1? For both axles?

That's the problem of n.a. 4wd cars.

That's why turbos are so popular: they can fake it since the motor makes the torque.[/quote]

5.09:1 final drive for EVO right here but doesn't work too well with a stock drivetrain spinning to 9k. Will work spinning to 7k:
http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/partdetails/Tomioka/Drivetrain/Ring__and_Pinion_Gears/EVO_Final_Drive/17719[/quote]


Where do you get your imagination from?
I don't even know what to say when people write things so silly.
Get off the inter-net Billy and get out in the real world.
What absurd blather you make.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
BillyElliot

Quote
john vanlandingham

Hey billy, a 9000 rpm motor is going to want a proper real close ratio gearset or it will be a miserable dog..

Find us a link to a gearset with like ratios suitable for a 9k motor like:
2.25,
1.53,
1.16,
1.0
,0.84

Those gears are trash for a 9k motor. You need a 7:1 final drive to go 113mph in 5th. Must be some dem derping turbin gurs of yurs.

To run at 9k you need something like:
1st 3.07
2nd 2.105
3rd 1.652
4th 1.385
5th 1.21
Final 4.9

strangely enough, if you throw a 6.67 FD on the gearset JVL describes, it's almost identical to gearing you list.