News from Big White Rally 2011??? Where?

Quote
Anders Green
The gaps tend to get larger and larger further down the field.

I know the word 'tend' is a great one to hide behind... but at Kananaskis, the previous event in the WCRC, 14th and 15th were separated by 1.5 seconds after 7 stages.

At PFR - after 9 stages in the points counting regional - 3/4 were 5.3 sec apart, 8/9 were 5.2 sec apart, 16/17 were 5.8 sec apart, 17/18 were 7.1 apart

In the national, the top of the pack were well separated while 11/12 were 3.9 sec apart after 16 stages.

At the Rocky Mountain Rally in late may, 1/2 were separated by 5.3 seconds after 9 stages 8/9 were only 1.0 sec apart.

At Cochrane, first and second were 24.1 sec apart after 14 stages while 5/6 were 6.9 sec apart.

Quote
A1337STI

What about the rest of the rally?

Oh don't get your panties in a bunch. I wasn't dismissing the rest of the competitors, I of all people have a love for anybody competing at an event and try to look at the issue on the whole. From what I can see from the results, Kelly's flier did not affect standings period. I was at the pointy end of the field, it was pointed out we beat Max on one stage, that was where the conversation was focused, bing bam boom.

I do think that Anders' is being overly dismissive of a system that not only gives us higher precision, but also higher accuracy. The cost (again IMO) is very worth it from a competitors viewpoint compared to clicking off stopwatches (I've watched people do it and have done it myself, soooooo inaccurate its not even funny +-2 seconds is very reasonable estimate). His point is very valid that as the field spreads out, it mitigates the need to be so very accurate. Anything over and above what we currently have? Not required. At this point, spotting bad data would be much more helpful (or recording it incorrectly, a 3:43 strikes me as being what the time should have been, in which case, he would have beat us overall by 2 tenths of a second, still not changing the results)

Bit what does any of this have to do with Big White quickly becoming the must-do event in the western side of the continent? 9 to 13 to 21 starters in the first three years! Can we hit 30 cars next year for a stand alone regional?

The timing discussion really has nothing to do with Big White. But I'd say the increasing entries show that people liek to do a good winter rally for a change of pace!

We've missed Pierce-Neige for the last 2 years, but we're in for 2012, I can't wait :-)

-Martin.

So what was this I hear Pat Richard is running around yammering about studs is for sissies and they're slower??

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
So what was this I hear Pat Richard is running around yammering about studs is for sissies and they're slower??

Context, as always, is important here.
The Rallywest rules allow for studded tires within the following limitations.
c) Studs must protrude no more than 3.5mm from the tread face.
d) The visible portion of each stud must be no more than 5mm in diameter, and any crosssection of the visible stud (as originally installed) must be perfectly round in shape, and must be of solid construction, not hollow.
e) The studs must be commercially and commonly available, and of conventional design, from tire dealers in the Rally West or BC regions (i.e., no homemade or specially imported studs).
f) There must be a maximum of 130 studs per tire, regardless of tire size

With those limitations, and the condition of most stage roads, Pat figures studdless tires are faster. The event has been won by studless tires all three years I think, but that only proves faster drivers are using studless tires.

He also backed up his yammering by offering the following:

Rocket Rally ‘Studless is Faster’ Award
To show that winter rallies can be won without studs, Rocket rally
provides Yokohama A034s to winners who run totally without studs:
For rally teams who complete the entire rally with studless tires on
all driven wheels, Rocket Rally will award:
4 YOKOHAMA A034s for a first place overall finish
2 YOKOHAMA A034s for the first place 2WD finish

If WRC or ice racing studs were allowed the story would be different.

Quote
Morison
I know the word 'tend' is a great one to hide behind... but

Picking out selected data points says nothing about tendency. Pick a method, pick a data set, operate, present results. If you believe that the gaps get tend to get larger further down the field, or that gap size is equal throughout the field, that's fine. If you can show how that either are actually true by analyzing some large set of data, then it becomes more interesting. I'd like to see the results if you do the analysis. A chart of average gap size versus position for 30 rallies would be pretty neat.

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote
Anders Green
I'd like to see the results if you do the analysis. A chart of average gap size versus position for 30 rallies would be pretty neat.

Why would i do the analasys? The statistical probability doesn't matter to me. What I've shown is that in just about every event this year there have one or more positions separated by less that 1sec/stage run. The probability that the standings would have been the same is also irrelevant since by throwing away the data you simply cant say with certainty who was faster.

I've don't remember timing to the 10th or hundreth ever being a big concern around here. I see how it could happen even going to a 10th. NASCAR can see photo finishes after a 500 mile race. We have much less of a controlled environment so I think see much less actual issues.

In theory you could have a scoring tie at .0 or .00 and a tie on stage wins. Maybe the winner(s) never won a stage at all. How much do you obsess over what could be? Scoring to the 10th or 100th just because it mighta coulda happen is kind of the same thing as fuel cell regulations. only at the organizers expense rather than the competitors.

Timing equipment is expensive and someone has to be very responsible for it and we all know nothing electronic ever fails. So who buys it? Who maintains it? Who monitors the repair funds? Individual organizer, regional club or sanctioning body? What about the weekends we have 2 or 3 different rallies running with 4 to 10 stages each?

This is supposed to be fun, the more precise something is required the less fun it becomes for most of the participants. We could just have a tie. Share the position and each gets points. It won't matter 5 or 10 years from now who did what anyway...

So...congrats on Big White for having such a neat event. I hope they hit 30 entries next year!

Gene, The thing is that we see results at every event that are determined with a level of certainty because of the resolution of scoring to the tenth. We don't see gaps that would beg to be resolved by hunthredths.

Yes, the equipment is expensive. Ours cost in the range of $20,000 but it has been dead reliable and is tough as nails. It is owned by the regional arm of the sanctioning body and has one main volunteer who operates and maintains it with another who is trained and capable of replacing him. They enjoy this part of the sport.

Whenever you have two cars and a stopwatch people will want to know who is faster. If it was all about the fun of driving on the roads, why time it at all?

Again, this is something the vast majority (not all) wanted in our region and many contributed funds over and above the $25 levy to make it happen.

Quote
heymagic
congrats on Big White for having such a neat event.

Understatement. Big White is THE event to be at. It's waaaayyyy better than Perce, two out of three years we've had a foot of fresh powder the night before the rally, and Big White sends out their plows for us. The roads are killer, and the event could be 200km long if a national. Oh, and the chance of the roads/event getting pulled? Never, Big White loves it!

Everything runs around the rally. It's SO cool how it all works

Of course Pat is going to say studless is faster. He is the major retailer for those tires.

Also the stud rules may limit the tire and usefulness of a fully studded tire.

I thought they limited entries at Big White to 20 entries.

Who's the major organizing factor behind this event? Person or group?
I like the format. A small town ski resort filling more hotel rooms on opening weekend by having a rally as well. Thus economic impact without flooding the hill with people trying to compete for our powder. I think it is a format that could work well with some of the smaller resorts in Colorado. Get the city involved, have them maintain a road that is normally not maintained in the winter until opening day, allow a rally on that road that weekend, then stop maintenance. No impact on locals since it'd be a road that is typically closed anyhow. As long as it's not a commonly used snowmobile route it'd be perfect.

Quote
HiTempguy

Quote
heymagic
congrats on Big White for having such a neat event.

Understatement. Big White is THE event to be at. It's waaaayyyy better than Perce, two out of three years we've had a foot of fresh powder the night before the rally, and Big White sends out their plows for us. The roads are killer, and the event could be 200km long if a national. Oh, and the chance of the roads/event getting pulled? Never, Big White loves it!

Everything runs around the rally. It's SO cool how it all works

Why not 300km SS?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
NoCoast
I thought they limited entries at Big White to 20 entries.

The limit was 30 entries. There were 21 this year.

Quote

Who's the major organizing factor behind this event? Person or group?

Jennifer Daly is the lead organizer. Keith has been clerk of the course for the last two years.
It is put on by folks from BC (WCRA) and AB (Rally West).

alan

Quote
NoCoast
Of course Pat is going to say studless is faster. He is the major retailer for those tires.

The 2wd winner was on Kuhmo tires - AO34s aren't the only studless option around.

Quote
NoCoast
Of course Pat is going to say studless is faster. He is the major retailer for those tires. Also the stud rules may limit the tire and usefulness of a fully studded tire.

Which is why the context is important. Given the allowable studs, studless is faster according to Pat. The stud rule was written around the lowest common denominator of stud laws in the provincial HTAs.

Quote
NoCoast
I thought they limited entries at Big White to 20 entries.

Supps say 30. might say 35 next year. I have a 200km stage sked for 45 cars in my back pocket that would run over a day and a bit. Some stages the evening of the first day and the rest through the day on day 2 with a reasonable finish time.

Quote
NoCoast
Who's the major organizing factor behind this event? Person or group?

Under the auspices of a club there is a core of a half dozen people or so who work hard to make the event happen in the planning/permissions stages. One or two work really hard on issues like permissions and planning. Ultimately the club is the conduit for insurance as well as the financial 'buffer' in the event of losses.
Every event in Canada is organized by a club. That said, the driving force behind any event is usually is one or two individuals.

Quote
NoCoast
I like the format. A small town ski resort filling more hotel rooms on opening weekend by having a rally as well.

Yes, its a great format. The hill is willing and interested in having us just about any weekend though, opening weekend poses some challenges.

Major portions of the roads we used were ploughed for the first time for Big White.
They are also normally used by snowmobiles during the winter. The first year we had some fairly cranky sledders when they found the ploughed road. they got over it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2011 12:42PM by Morison.