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john vanlandingham
Why not 300km SS?

It probably could be.
I do have a 211 stage km sked in my back pocket that would run from noon to 1830 on the first day an 0930 to 1900 on the second day and would accommodate a 45 car field. Recce would start at 0800 and end at 1820. Civilised for 200+ km of stage where you only do two passes of a single stage road.

A big concern is the number of volunteers and radio operators available.

The big question is what do you get when you add mileage to an event?

CARS has guidelines that suggest a national event should be a minimum 150km of stage but should aim for 200 if possible. That implies that regional events should be under 150, and we saw some fatigue at Kananaskis that supports that.

In talking with Buffum, he was suggesting the return on investment of going much further than 150km is really really low and that the gaps - considering the depth of the field - are pretty much sorted out by then. A deeper competitive field would tend to need longer to get to the point of being decided before the stages are done.

Personlly I love long stages and don't mind long events if the schedule is smart about it but adding length just for the sake of adding length doesn't make a lot of sense.

Big white can probably hit 235km without being ignorant about it.

In a world of grassroots privateers, what's the advantage of pushing to 300km.

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HiTempguy
Oh, and the chance of the roads/event getting pulled? Never, Big White loves it!

Road permissions are probably sketchier for this event than for any other in the championship actually. Particularly with the jackassery in and around the service park that is attributed to us (rightfully or not) we are on thin ice - so to speak - with many of the condo owners in the resort and they carry big weight.

The commercial users of the road have been great to work with to date - but they have no reason to want us there.

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Morison
Road permissions are probably sketchier for this event than for any other in the championship actually. Particularly with the jackassery in and around the service park that is attributed to us (rightfully or not) we are on thin ice - so to speak - with many of the condo owners in the resort and they carry big weight.

The commercial users of the road have been great to work with to date - but they have no reason to want us there.

Sorry Keith, I was not under that impression from talking to people. My bad. I understand it's not just Big White that allows us to be around there, but it sure sounded like there weren't too many problems. The more you know...

As an interesting consumer-driven data point, I wonder what the answer to the following question would be:

Do you as a competitor see the value of an extra 2-4% added your entry fee to for the explicit benefit of have subsecond timing at a given event?

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Morison


A big concern is the number of volunteers and radio operators available.

As always

The big question is what do you get when you add mileage to an event?

A bigger sense of challenge and adventure, a bigger sense of accomplishment, and longer lasting memories and enthusiasm. and a chance for the old rabbit and the hare scenario to have a chance to come into play

CARS has guidelines that suggest a national event should be a minimum 150km of stage but should aim for 200 if possible. That implies that regional events should be under 150,

Does it really? I'm an expert at understanding language and specialise in understanding and explaining implied messages......I don't sense a disturbance in the Schwartz


and we saw some fatigue at Kananaskis that supports that.

Por ejemplo?

In talking with Buffum, he was suggesting the return on investment of going much further than 150km is really really low and that the gaps - considering the depth of the field - are pretty much sorted out by then. A deeper competitive field would tend to need longer to get to the point of being decided before the stages are done.

Well that is Buffum's standard response..
Now implication elucidation:

He generally says "The top results are all decided by 90 miles so what's the point of going 150?"
He is implying that the only results worth considering, and further,, the only reason to have all the volunteers and time spent pre-and during the event is to give a stage for "the top" and once the "top" are all tuckered out you may as well end the event.


Personlly I love long stages and don't mind long events if the schedule is smart about it but adding length just for the sake of adding length doesn't make a lot of sense.


Same here and I

agree, but what all of us, including Pat and his pointy stick need is more time in car. But its usually more satiating to have a real meal, rather than a morsel.
Just look how stage rally guys who do Totem or Thunderbird rave about how much fun it is---when there's snow---not 1105 but MILES and MILES of fun...

Part of what I'm implying is there should-----as has historically always been the case----a variety of forms and formats of rally depending on conditions "From each Rally according to its abilities, to each rally according to its needs" some wise guy once said.

Then organisers can: offer an inticement (either way---example "Dudes come to Little Swipe 2012, only 40 miles, even blue Subie rallists out to manage to keep the car going to the end!" or maybe "Come to BIIIIIIG White 2012! 300KM SS of the rootin'est tootin'est sideways action this side of the Pecos and only 6 people have ever survived. Girly men need not apply!"

And after a while EVERYBODY can see what the great unwashed likes....
Remember, nothing is carved in stone.

Big white can probably hit 235km without being ignorant about it.
In a world of grassroots privateers, what's the advantage of pushing to 300km.

Again listen to the SS guys rave about how much fun the have on Totem or T-bird.

More is more.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I love long rallies.

However, as Steward for Big White, I saw that the event was near the limit of what could be handled by the volunteers that they had. In at least one place it was stretched beyond the limit. For Big White to work as a longer rally, it would need a lot more volunteers.

alan

Mileage dropped in 2011 from either 2009 or 2010, and dropped even more when we shortened a stage for safety issues-- took 4Km out of the sked. (I heard - second hand - of only one that disagreed with that decision, there may have been more though.)

People still loved the event and seemed glad to be finished by the end of the day. (I welcomed each car to the finish) The event has grown from 9 to 21 entries over three years and we repeatedly heard this was the best one yet. I think the formula works.

Volunteer staffing is the ultimate deciding factor but I also think we've found the sweet spot in terms of time commitment and distance. You can look to Idaho as an example of an event that tried to go big and seems to have suffered.

Big distance TSDs are a different animal in many ways from Stage events. With recce (which ain't going away) and keeping to two passes max on a piece of road a 300km stage event quickly becomes a 4 day commitment, or more - I'm fairly certain that will cost us more entries than we'll gain. (part of loving the long distance TSDs - for me at least - is the relaxed approach and lack of support logistics involved - its just pure driving)

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john vanlandingham
Well that is Buffum's standard response..
Now implication elucidation:
He generally says "The top results are all decided by 90 miles so what's the point of going 150?"
He is implying that the only results worth considering, and further,, the only reason to have all the volunteers and time spent pre-and during the event is to give a stage for "the top" and once the "top" are all tuckered out you may as well end the event

When I talked to him about that he specifically made the point about the results being fairly set through the entire field, not just the top. Then again, as I pointed out, there will be battles that are still seconds apart and that do run right to the final stage - the question becomes if the added distance changes that. IE if they are 4s apart after 100 km will they be 8 sec apart after 200?
I'd suggest the more distance you run in an event the higher the chance that bad luck or force majeur will step into a deciding role.

But lets hear from the people who where there as competitors about the stage distance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2011 04:03PM by Morison.

What was the stage mileage?
I think 60-100 miles is the perfect amount for a single day club event. I also think it's potentially the most sustainable to have everything based around one day of rallying and at most 3-4 unique roads.

123.34 scheduled Km. ~76.6 miles
4 km (2x2km) cancelled for safety (massive exposure, icy road, no snowbanks)
1km (of scheduled) cancelled to avoid a stupid special deciding the event. (no spectators, no point)

Competitive distance ended up being 118ish Km. (73 miles)

Essentially 3 roads with only one of them being run in both directions so considered as 4 unique stages. 60 km (37.25 km) of stage road to recce with dead-end turnarounds killing the recce schedule (not to mention holding for logging truck traffic)

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Morison
123.34 scheduled Km. ~76.6 miles
4 km (2x2km) cancelled for safety (massive exposure, icy road, no snowbanks)
1km (of scheduled) cancelled to avoid a stupid special deciding the event. (no spectators, no point)

Competitive distance ended up being 118ish Km. (73 miles)

And the stage-transit ratio was pretty good - 56% stage 44% transit

alan

I see no reason to change the format. Yeah the recce shed wasn't ideal. Maybe do Gem lake stages in the afternoon next year? Talk the logging companies into shutting down around noon(I know not likely). It really didn't matter too much, we were still done by 4 so I had time to rewrite notes before tech. Any way I look at it I love this rally and hope to be coming back to it for a long time!

The only reason Gem was done first because of the activity on Black Forest, which was higher. The aim was to get us into black forest as late as possible and 2/3 of gem wasn't in use anyway.
The likely shift will be to Saturday recce Sunday Rally and that should heavily reduce the interaction with the logging companies. (And the after-party unfortunately)

Some thoughts...

Seat time is important but totally worthless when fatigue sets in.

The level of volunteer staffing determines a rallies length, sucess and longevity as much as the number of entries.

Growth every year reflects a good formula and no real reason to mess with things.

Huge difference between TSD and stage rally in staffing as well as mental requirement for competitors.

Rally is a nuisance sport. People need to remember that. Without a huge volunteer force there would be no rally. Without agreeable landowners and users there would be no rally. Without dedicated and addlepated organizers there would be no rally. One must never assume roads can't be lost in the blink of an eye. One shouldn't think that the average rally drivers ability will keep wowing volunteers into returning year after year. One really shouldn't think that organizers won't discover the joy of watching paint dry and move on. Rally isn't a right or privelege it is a gift, be sure and sincerely thank the people who give so much of themselves to put an event on.

There used to be an absolutely great event on Vancouver Island in the early 80's. One year it was gone. Around 1985 the landowner just pulled the plug I believe. No drama, no big problems that I heard about, just gone.

I'm really glad to see the western Canadian events holding on and growing. Maybe with our program shrinking a bit down here theirs will benefit.

Thanks to all the organizers and volunteers.
I had a great time at the event - read all about it at http://cranerallycrew.com

in response to roads - more. I know I wasn't going to make up a ton of time on my competitors, but there was a chance they could also crash. stamina like john said is important.
I pay money to drive, so more is better. (roads, not money)

Studs vs stud-less.
I ran the C5s, They were awesome everywhere but the the icy part of gem lake (see dustin's crash - http://contour.com/stories/big-white-winter-rally)
if they let me put all the studs in instead of half, I would have no complaints.
I ran the same tires as Dustin, just on the last two stages. they weren't as good.
Pat's rally snows wouldn't fit very well in my fenders, so I wouldn't have tried very hard to win them.
nice for eric to get a FULL SET!! from Rocket, for the national event.
eric de-studded the tires he ran just for a chance of winning the Yokos.
Pat doesn't loose anything by having a studded car win.
he's also got Max riddel winning everything.