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JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?

Posted by bugajwrx 
MRWmotorsports
Martin Walter
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 26, 2012 09:12PM
John, would this be JVL tubes, DMS inserts, bilstein pistons and rods? These new 50mm bilstein inserts would/should be direct replacements inserts if/when I bent these hybrids? Just trying to make sure I undertsand what you are offering. My next gravel rally iusn't until early May, but it sounds like Bilstein 50mm's still might not be available, or iffy at best. Let me know if I've got this right.

-Martin.
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 26, 2012 09:23PM
Quote
MRWmotorsports
John, would this be JVL tubes, DMS inserts, bilstein pistons and rods? These new 50mm bilstein inserts would/should be direct replacements inserts if/when I bent these hybrids? Just trying to make sure I undertsand what you are offering. My next gravel rally iusn't until early May, but it sounds like Bilstein 50mm's still might not be available, or iffy at best. Let me know if I've got this right.

-Martin.

Yeah, or precisely DMS insert TUBE...
One thing I thunk of is the top pin....

But you're right, nobody know how/when the 50s will arrive, or how they'll end up in anybody's hands to be made into actual usable suspension.



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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 27, 2012 08:14AM
I guess for this hybrid solution we'd be stuck with the mounting pin as it is now, which is what? What top mounts does that mate to? I could work with just about any top mount as necessary. But my intention would be to use these inserts only until proper Bilstein ones are available, then keep these as spares. I'd consider using a common production style top mount for the 50mm solution anyway... I've a feeling that the small ammount of compliance that this would offer might help avoid bending in the future.

-Martin.
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 27, 2012 12:33PM
Forever, lurking and thinking...

What IS bending these things? I mean they are huge (i understand the wall thickness isn't huge, but it's not paper...) , and the lower control arms should be keeping them only going up and down correct? So what is happening to get them out of alignment and causing them to then bend? Don't the lower control arms have to be moving to cause some sort of misalignment? Oooorrrrr, are they hydro-locking on big hits causing all this energy to go "somewhere" and thus the tube gets bent? (since the chassis is all seam welded up, strong as whatever, tied the cage... yadda yadda)

If that is the reason, is the larger tube just stronger, or does the large piston give more control and less potential for the system to lock up?

Thanks...
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 27, 2012 12:35PM
Does the upcoming 50's mean there will be a surplus of used 40's just looking for a Justy Home???

He he LOL
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 27, 2012 12:44PM
Hi Matt, that's the $64,000 question...

I've been thinking about it for 6 years. I've come up with theories, but no proof.. how do you prove why they are bending? Unless you fix somethimng and the stop bending.. how long, mabe a full season with no bent inserts would be proof.

Theory is: heavy car, excessive side loads, small diamater tube = bend.
I can run the things through full travel with no spring on, and turn lock to lock, so theortically there is no binding. I do have rubber bushings on teh inner of control arm,a nd teh TC rod that goes forn LCA to the rad cradle... maybe these are moving enough under load that something is binding? My top mount uses a spherical bearing now, my theory is if this were a stock style rubber top mount that maybe it woudl have some give and reduce any possible binding...

I dunno...

-Martin.
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 27, 2012 01:16PM
A friend of mine stopped by my house to pick up some tires i was giving him.

I showed him my Bent eared rear, and marks 2 bent ones. (he has an engineering or is it an Engine ear ring ? degree)

He was thinking the bending of the ears is hitting something hard with your rear tires at speed and possible under some compression. you're hitting a big force that wants to yank that wheel directly backwards.. energy has to go somewhere, and it goes into the ears first (which bend if not gusseted)

On the actual inserts bending. he's thinking we just have to be hitting stuff while in a drift. Tap a berm at 65 .. might not feel like much of a push to you, but it might have been a good lateral push onto the Insert. i was showing him the Ksports which have yet to bend on me.. and he noticed the Ksports are bigger. 40mm vs 36mm (i believe)

Also the Ksport has a lot more overlap so the leverage point to Bend the Insert (inner tube) is shorter, so whacking a berm provides less leverage to bend the insert , and the bigger diameter tube resists bending more.

I Honestly think if John can make a rear tube with the max overlap that still allows for full travel, the Bending of the 36's (40s) will be in the past. (except for stupid big crashes)

the ear bending thing sorta makes sense. if you hit a large rock on a front tire and the wheel needs to "move backwards" it can to some degree via your steering. all the steering bushings and joints will allow for Some movement . Plus i think drivers are a lot better at dodging rocks with their fronts wheels, but sometimes tag one with a back wheel (mid drift)

that's my thinkings.. So i'll have to bug john and see if we can make make an " experimental" setup on one of mine. smiling smiley
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 27, 2012 01:16PM
Quote
Mad Matt F
Forever, lurking and thinking...

What IS bending these things? I mean they are huge (i understand the wall thickness isn't huge, but it's not paper...) , and the lower control arms should be keeping them only going up and down correct? So what is happening to get them out of alignment and causing them to then bend? Don't the lower control arms have to be moving to cause some sort of misalignment? Oooorrrrr, are they hydro-locking on big hits causing all this energy to go "somewhere" and thus the tube gets bent? (since the chassis is all seam welded up, strong as whatever, tied the cage... yadda yadda)

If that is the reason, is the larger tube just stronger, or does the large piston give more control and less potential for the system to lock up?

Thanks...

Side Loads...

In a mcpherson strut car, the strut is keeping the wheel/hub from flapping about. The control arm locates the bottom of the hub with the balljoint, but the strut is what's locating the top of the hub.

I mean, jack the car up, and with the wheel/tire still installed, give the bottom of the tire a whack, and think about the forces. Then whack the top of the tire and think about the forces....they get transmitted into the strut. The insert is weaker than the strut tube that locates it, so it bends.

"heavy cars", driving faster, rougher roads, etc are all going to put more stress on the 40mm or 50mm shaft.



Chris
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 27, 2012 02:53PM
Quote
A1337STI
A friend of mine stopped by my house to pick up some tires i was giving him.

I showed him my Bent eared rear, and marks 2 bent ones. (he has an engineering or is it an Engine ear ring ? degree)

He was thinking the bending of the ears is hitting something hard with your rear tires at speed and possible under some compression. you're hitting a big force that wants to yank that wheel directly backwards.. energy has to go somewhere, and it goes into the ears first (which bend if not gusseted)

On the actual inserts bending. he's thinking we just have to be hitting stuff while in a drift. Tap a berm at 65 .. might not feel like much of a push to you, but it might have been a good lateral push onto the Insert. i was showing him the Ksports which have yet to bend on me.. and he noticed the Ksports are bigger. 40mm vs 36mm (i believe)

Also the Ksport has a lot more overlap so the leverage point to Bend the Insert (inner tube) is shorter, so whacking a berm provides less leverage to bend the insert , and the bigger diameter tube resists bending more.

I Honestly think if John can make a rear tube with the max overlap that still allows for full travel, the Bending of the 36's (40s) will be in the past. (except for stupid big crashes)

the ear bending thing sorta makes sense. if you hit a large rock on a front tire and the wheel needs to "move backwards" it can to some degree via your steering. all the steering bushings and joints will allow for Some movement . Plus i think drivers are a lot better at dodging rocks with their fronts wheels, but sometimes tag one with a back wheel (mid drift)

that's my thinkings.. So i'll have to bug john and see if we can make make an " experimental" setup on one of mine. smiling smiley


Elsewhere today to the young guy going to college who has this insane signature quote from a friend about "Injur-nears" "We make assumptions..."

Re: the ears

I was told by a good Engineer that vectors is like Engineering 101 first week.
Draw a rectangle the draw an arrow going ---------> that away.
Thats your car going forward.
You hit a nasty ass ledge....the force goes<--------thataways.
It wants to bend things BACK.
The suspension links "resolve' the load and so there is a rearwards and upwards force---and the suspesnion moves UPWARDS...

Too bad the ears are bending FORWARD...

Of course the forces are multidirectional. Draw another box and put some wheels on it viewed from above. Draw your arrow ^ for forwards thrust--which generates a rearward push V thataway then imagine cornering, braking, braking and cornering and imagine the resultant direction the force is going....

Clearly overlap is the key to making the stuffs go up and down and not fold rearward...

But said you have not disassembled the K-sprouts like you said ya haddnt---(and gawddamit have you sent your other rear up yet???) unless your injur-near friend is like this guy


then I don't know how he'd be able to say what the overlap is..
Send those damn things up and we can whip 'em apart and see similarities and differences----which is the first step in "Engineering", and most analysis : compare and contrast.

The "good" Engineer I spoke with back in December, was in agreement when I wondered aloud about 2 things; the gooseneck being describing a tighter arc than the spindle and being to go across the top of the arc, and "the sheer amount of rubber potentially causing weird ass shit"...potentially is a big engineering word.....Engineers learn to use that a lot when they're guessing.



John Vanlandingham
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CALL +1 206 431-9696
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is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 27, 2012 11:14PM
Chris,

Yeah just before I read your post I thought "oh yeah" that strut is stopping the wheel from folding inwards too... got it!

Thanks!
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
January 28, 2012 01:44AM
Best way to think of it is the strut is the upper control arm, and is subject to similar loading.
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
February 24, 2012 03:28PM
Quote
john vanlandingham
Well there will be updates within minutes of me getting an update from Bilstein.. That said "early Spring" and its middle of Winter now.

I emailed bret a while ago and he said "We are pushing hard to have kits on the shelf with in two months." and that was on Feburary 1st.

Hopefully they get them out close to then.
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
May 03, 2012 10:48PM
John, any update? I read in another thread that they called while you were under the knife. You were waiting until you felt better to call back. Are you feeling better yet? Are you an oafficial distributor yet?

-Martin.
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Re: JVAB 50mm subaru fittment...any intrest?
May 07, 2012 09:24PM
Anyone? Anyone?... Buller?
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