education suggestions please

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Jon Burke

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john vanlandingham


No wonder all "tech" shit works like it does.

How does it work, John? As good as your struts on a Gorman stage?


LinkedIn worked pretty fucking well there, eh? That's the kind of stuff I sell.

Hey sales guy, don't be an asshole, OK?
The guy driving the car told me he 'sorta" "missed' the road and clouted a massive rock...
Shit happens and its fixed....and improved.

Your comment was bullshit, skill and knowledge do matter in most things we do. I "know" all sorta of people, guys whose quarterly bonuses probably exceed your yearly salary, but that hasn't gotten me a job.

Own up to your comments.
If you really believe that skills, education, training, experience doesn't count in the market you're in, fine.

I don't care to argue it.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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john vanlandingham


Hey sales guy, don't be an asshole, OK?

same to you John, so let me get this right, for clarity....you can dish it out, but can't take it?

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john vanlandingham


The OP would be wise to ask Mr Burke just what branch of computer sales he is in....because in his world , for that matter the entire "tech" world, he is probably right: education, skills, experience, integrity, honesty, are all trumped by knowing somebody.....

No wonder all "tech" shit works like it does.

so then what ARE you saying here? Because I see this as a general comment on my integrity, honesty and comment on how 'tech' works like shit, w/o a single example (because you don't know me or what I sell, so you don't have a single example to stand on, but I can't coment on you?)

Everything breaks John, but you get a pass and its "OK" but I'm the "asshole", hmmmm? My comment wasn't a personal attack on your product, obviously I know Alex and I know you made him a happy camper, my POINT (which you missed) was that everything breaks....'tech' breaks, sofware eventually breaks, everything eventually breaks. That doesn't make me dis-honest or w/o integrity, just as much as it does for you and your product.

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JVL
I "know" all sorta of people, guys whose quarterly bonuses probably exceed your yearly salary

umm, you don't know the first thing about my salary or comp plan, so you shouldn't comment on things you know nothing about.

And if you 'know' all sorts of people who can't get you a job, maybe that says something about you (maybe it doesn't, I don't know...but its something you should think about, a little 'take a look in the mirror', maybe?).

All of the people I know would be happy to at least try to help me, I KNOW that says something about me (as a person, and as a "sales guy".

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2012 02:13PM by Jon Burke.

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john vanlandingham


I don't care to argue it.

I'm not arguing it. Its a simple, well known fact for any of us who've ever looked for a job in the past 10+ years. Knowing someone at a company or in an industry is the #1 advantage to getting a job at that company or industry.

If you don't want to believe me, that's fine. but you can have the best experience and education in the world, but that won't matter if you can't get in front of the hiring manager.

And if you 'apply' with everyone else, your resume gets tossed in a big pile along with all the other 'applicants' and you know who the 10 people will be that get the interview? Its will be the 10 people who were personally recommended to the hiring manager.


This is from early last year:
http://choosework.typepad.com/choose_work_blog/2011/03/10-more-things-that-hr-wont-tell-you-about-your-resume.html


So, of the 10 points, here's point 2,3,4:

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2. “When it comes to getting a job, who you know really does matter. No matter how nice your resume is or how great your experience may be, it’s all about connections.” –HR director at a health-care facility

3. “If you’re trying to get a job at a specific company, often the best thing to do is to avoid HR entirely. Find someone at the company you know, or go straight to the hiring manager.” –Shauna Moerke, an HR administrator in Alabama who blogs athrminion.com

4. “People assume someone’s reading their cover letter. I haven’t read one in 11 years.” –HR director at a financial services firm

re: #4, I've never written a cover letter, either. I've always gotten jobs through connections.

oh, and when I did a complete 180 degree career change (when I got into sales), I had ZERO sales experience, but my roommate at the time was a rep a Salesforce.com (top Bay Area software firm that's now a +$2B company) he got me the interview, the hiring VP liked me, so he hired me and 'gave me a chance' over people with actual sales experience.


I could keep going with stories like this for days. Actually, I DO have one personal story to the contrary. Before I decided to try a career change, I was sending out resume's via Monster.com (I had been laid off from my supply chain job) and by some miracle, a Google recruiter called me in for a purchasing position they had. This was back in early 2004....so PRE-IPO Google. The job was a perfect fit, but was a 50% paycut from what I was doing earlier, but fuck it, I needed a job and it was GOOGLE. They had 6 people and they did the thing where they brought us all in at once and so we're all sitting in the lobby together staring at each other. I was easily the youngest guy there by 10 years.

Of the 6, I came in 3rd. The recruiter was nice enough to actually call me back, let me know where I stood, told me they liked me, but they liked the other 2 people as well and they had more experience, but if those two people didn't take the offer (remember, this was a 50% paycut, and everyone else was way older than I was), I was next in line.

So that time, yup....experience trumped. (who knows how the hell they picked me anyway). That was actually my wakeup call to get into something different.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

To the OP...I've been in your situation before and its sucks, so I hope some of this is helping not just your decision, but you're overall career strategy.


To be clear, I'm not trying to downplay the importance of education. Obviously if you want to get into R&D with a top automotive team, then yeah, you need that base level of education/knowlege and understanding to even be considered.


When I graduated from undergrad, I was an Ocean Engineer (from Univ of RI). (think Civil engineer but I took a bunch of classes on underwater soil mechanics, wave theory, littoral processes, sonar, etc). What I really wanted to do was work at Woods Hole Oceanographic institute and work for/with/around Dr. Bob Ballard and underwater submersibles (if you don't know, Ballard is the guy who found the Titanic).

Anyway, I never got to work there. When I applied, I was just applying and other than my degree, I had no experience knew no one m and they don't hire people they don't know w/no experience to go out on tightly crewed research vessels.

when I talked to my professors, no one could help me get in there, no one knew anyone at woods hole. And I definitely should have done a better job of networking with them and using them more as a resource to find SOME way of getting connected.

I recently learned Dr. Ballard is now a professor at University of Rhode island teaching in their Oceanography dept....do you think my chances of getting a job at Woods Hole would be exponentially better now if I had a recommendation from him?


Point is....don't blindly just go to school (although it does sound like Oxford might be a pretty good choice). BUT, don't just blindly go there....sounds like you need to call/talk to Paul/Cosworth and pick his brain too. If/when you go to school there, become friends with all your professors (something I should have done more of) and find out who they know, who they've worked with, and figure out a way to get introduced to people in the industry through the school/professors and let those people know who you are, what you're doing, what you want to do WAY BEFORE you actually graduate..

Don't forget, timing is very important as well (I was 10yrs too early to learn under Dr. Ballard)....the hiring manager could be your best friend in the world, but if he's not hiring or doesn't have budget for another headcount, then you're still SOL.

And nothing will suck more than if you graduate, apply for some job, and they call you back and say, "Oh, you would have been a good fit, but we just filled the position."


oh, last thing....as much as JVL loves to crap on 'sales guys'....don't forget, NEVER forget, at a job interview, you're selling yourself...not your resume/experience....yourself. 90% of the time, if you're in the interview, you already have enough experience....the point of the interview is to really see if you'll be a good fit in the organization as a whole, and if your hirign manager will like you/want to be around you for 40+hrs a week.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/14/2012 03:36PM by Jon Burke.

I'd listen to Jon Burke.

As for self-employment/ownership... Automotive technician is not a job you can do forever. So the only successful life plan is to save money with the intent of opening your own service center. Eventually something will happen that will make it slower or difficult or impossible to work and you will need a plan then.
Case in point. My Dad is a self employed independent contractor. Basically, if you want something built, remodeled, project saved, etc, you call him. Fell on ice Wednesday and broke the ball off his humerous on his left shoulder. He's got a shit ton of countertops for a remodel project coming in Tuesday. He'll be okay because he has people that work for him that he can supervise. Will it slow down and hurt his business for the next few months? Sure, but because he has employees, he'll make it through it. If he was an employee at a firm, he'd probably be forced into retirement or similar.

I have two friends that started their own Audi/VW service center a few years back. They realized in 2011 that they were at the maximum that two of them can produce in a year. So they brought in a third person as an additional partner. What they should have done was hired a tech.
Another friend that owns a Subaru performance shop just expanded. He went from employing 2 friends to 5 friends and is now a full service shop instead of just doing engine builds and swaps.

I have another friend that won't work anywhere he can't bring his dog. Oh wait, he's one of the owners of the Audi/VW joint. He's been almost exclusively self employed since the early 90s. Screen printing shop then mattress company then automotive.

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Grant Hughes

Holy shit! He broke the ball OFF the humorous?? That blows. (it takes everything in my power not to say "thats pretty funny" .... shit!)

What's the recovery for that?

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

"I guess my point/advice to the OP is.....you're asking the wrong question ('what school should I go to...'). You should figure out what you really want to do.....then figure out who you know in that field or similar job, or company or whatever. Talk to them, find out if you REALLY need to get a degree or not....if yes, then find out FROM THEM (not us), what school and degree you REALLY need."


John, I was looking for information about said list of schools. I figured that this would be a good place to find a good pool of people who possibly live near, gone to, or had a friend attend one of the schools. The advice you're giving on making sure I know what I'm getting into is very much appreciated. I've allready done most of what your saying I should do. Which is leading me to trying to narrow down my list of schools.

Thank you all for the information very useful and insightful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 05:13PM by Roc pitbull.

I would love to contribute to this thread but all of this is a different language to me. I have literally no idea where and what is good. I am a newb in this area. I also will be looking for a school focused on performance after my degree at TX State Technical College.

Wondering...y'all have opinions on TSTC? And should I do the machine work and welding programs after auto tech?? I don't want to spend my life in school though...




-if you see this as thread jacking ignore this post...lol

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Roc pitbull
"I guess my point/advice to the OP is.....you're asking the wrong question ('what school should I go to...'). You should figure out what you really want to do.....then figure out who you know in that field or similar job, or company or whatever. Talk to them, find out if you REALLY need to get a degree or not....if yes, then find out FROM THEM (not us), what school and degree you REALLY need."


John, I was looking for information about said list of schools. I figured that this would be a good place to find a good pool of people who possibly live near, gone to, or had a friend attend one of the schools. The advice you're giving on making sure I know what I'm getting into is very much appreciated. I've allready done most of what your saying I should do. Which is leading me to trying to narrow down my list of schools.

Thank you all for the information very useful and insightful.

cool, good luck! you're already smarter than I was. Keep us updated, I'm interested to see how things go for you in the long run, whatever you choose.

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Jon Burke - KI6LSW
Blog: http://psgrallywrx.blogspot.com/

I've completed more semesters of college education than I did for K-12. Then again, not everyone spends 6 years on a Master's degree... Been done with coursework for years, then working and trying to find a good thesis topic. I am not a fan of applied thesis work (applying existing methods to new data) so I am looking for something truly original. After I graduate I may stay around for a few more years and go for a few more degrees and learn more.

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Grant Hughes