Just read up on the demise of Group B back in the 80s...

I am now sad. That really sucks. Is there anymore info or articles on the crashes of Santos or Toivonen?

Marvdogger on YouTube is currently doing a documentary on Toivonen's career.

He's also got a something like 17 part documentary on the history of the Delta S4, Toivonen's death constitutes a decent portion of it. IIRC there's also a good chunk in it regarding Santos's crash in Portugal - lots of interesting bits with interviews with the top drivers. (Tony Pond speaks at length at how absurd it's getting, while Alen mostly just said "No. I'm not going. No." )

Portugal:





Toivonen's death is covered in Part V part 2 and 3. (Yes, the naming convention is off)

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 08:43AM by Pete.

side note: PETE CHECK YOUR PMs OR PM ME YOUR EMAIL!!!!!!

anyway, i have "rally in the 80s" and "rally in the 70s" on the hard drive. Once im back in the states i could find a way to send it to yall

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Bear in mind boys that numbers don't lie. The Group B cars initially were barely faster on SS times than the nice old Group 4 Escorts and Fiat 131s.
At their best--in 1986, last year, the average MPH for at the fastest WRC event, Finland, the winner averaged just 5.sumpin km/hr faster for the whole event, or about 3.1 mph..

As a test its good because the only variable is the car, it was same drivers.

Subjectively the GpB cars were the most dramatic things I've seen in the woods, but then again I never saw World level Group 4 cars driven by the WRC elite.

But imagine the speed of the old Gp4 cars are damn near the same (remember the difference if for the winner)

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

The 80's were tragic times. You should have seen the hair styles back then.

yea i was born too.

---

First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
Cars Built (2.5), Engines Blown (2) Cages Built (0) # of rotations (3.5)
Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

Quote
john vanlandingham

But imagine the speed of the old Gp4 cars are damn near the same (remember the difference if for the winner)

I wonder how much of that is because they spent less time being broken - going back over the rallies there is a LOT of mechanical upfuckery.

That and the handling on the cars didn't look all that stellar, especially those Audis!

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.

If you want to find out more just buy this book: group b book

Nice, thanks for all the info. I would certainly be interested in "rally in the 70s and 80s" and did you see the price of that book 999 EUR??? Am I reading this wrong?

John, are you saying that Group B was hyped up more than it should've?



I think I'm in love with the 240RS....

Quote
240tshead

John, are you saying that Group B was hyped up more than it should've?



I think I'm in love with the 240RS....

Just like HP figures in Formula One GpB bhp figures have gone up a couple of hundred since the figures in respected press overseas at the time.
So with the passage of time and generations of people who have never seen them or look at at SS times, they hypped up and speed of what came before is not known or appreciated.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Just like HP figures in Formula One GpB bhp figures have gone up a couple of hundred since the figures in respected press overseas at the time.
So with the passage of time and generations of people who have never seen them or look at at SS times, they hypped up and speed of what came before is not known or appreciated.

Not sure what you mean in bold....maybe I am just a bad reader...lol Are you saying how 1 1980 hp does not = 1 2010 hp?

Confused....

Quote
240tshead

Quote
john vanlandingham
Just like HP figures in Formula One GpB bhp figures have gone up a couple of hundred since the figures in respected press overseas at the time.
So with the passage of time and generations of people who have never seen them or look at at SS times, they hypped up and speed of what came before is not known or appreciated.

Not sure what you mean in bold....maybe I am just a bad reader...lol Are you saying how 1 1980 hp does not = 1 2010 hp?

Confused....

No, what he's saying is people sometimes say things now like, "Oh yeah, the Group B cars were badass, they had like 800 hp!"

Actually, they typically had 350-550hp, tops.

This whole thread makes me feel old.

I have a book somewhere that has an interview with Walter Rohrl regarding Group B. As he said, it's not that the Group B cars were actually going any faster than they were with 2wd cars in the '70's. It's just that they got to those same speeds MUCH more frequently.

But in truth the tires, brakes, gearboxes, diffs, and suspensions of those cars were not up to the task of handling all that power. Modern rally cars are so much faster overall. They just don't have the raw acceleration.

---

Opel is a 4-letter word...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10498579@N07/sets/

Oh okay yeah I see. Heck, my favorite GrB car doesn't even have 300hp...I believe the FJ24 put out 277hp...but it was also rwd....hmmm. I guess the 240rs wasn't one of the "cool" ones. lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 05:34PM by 240tshead.