An odo is not necessary.

I told Nowicki to put it at the bottom of his list. It didn't get done. I had GPS for part of the event (but some of the road names didn't line up, and some of the tulips didn't include names). For distances I used my watch.

That said, I would prefer to run with an odo..........

Also, Steve does not name his cars - but this one should be Tommy - after the Who and Pinball Wizard. I've never spent so much time spinning, and bouncing, and getting stuck. Not a good first outing for the Mitsubishi Lancer Celeste/Plymouth Fire Arrow (and the car came from Washington).

Still, it was fun.

And interviews from Popular Mechanics and Automobile.

Quote
Ian S
Just back from Sno*Drift.


The Skelly's had a few trials and tribulations on Friday, but hopefully they come as a lesson for future events (a working odometer is more important than matching team clothing). I think the true shining light for the group was RTK, the Kaltak's were just as new as the girls, and they finished both days without issue, and they set much better times over all. Great things for new driver/co-driver/car/team.

Maybe next year I will give it a shot with my own car.

press on,

---

just a poor, dumb, Michigan navie

Gee, then why don't we just drive with street tires in summer? You can get going pretty good, just braking and cornering suck...
It would be all even...and a lot cheaper.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
jimmy
An odo is not necessary.

I told Nowicki to put it at the bottom of his list. It didn't get done. I had GPS for part of the event (but some of the road names didn't line up, and some of the tulips didn't include names). For distances I used my watch.

That said, I would prefer to run with an odo..........

Also, Steve does not name his cars - but this one should be Tommy - after the Who and Pinball Wizard. I've never spent so much time spinning, and bouncing, and getting stuck. Not a good first outing for the Mitsubishi Lancer Celeste/Plymouth Fire Arrow (and the car came from Washington).

Still, it was fun.

And interviews from Popular Mechanics and Automobile.

press on,

No, for experienced driver/co-driver teams, an odo is not a need, but for a first time team, without experience, it should be very important. When I say odo, I dont just mean a rally computer, I mean any sort of mileage counter. I totally understand having priorities, but for me, car prep comes before everything else.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Gee, then why don't we just drive with street tires in summer? You can get going pretty good, just braking and cornering suck...
It would be all even...and a lot cheaper.

Why dont we all drive Pikes Peak hill climb style unlimited class offroad prototypes?

---

I Seppanen, Car #240

Wouldn't we, if we could?

Anders

---

Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

Quote
Ian S

Quote
john vanlandingham
Gee, then why don't we just drive with street tires in summer? You can get going pretty good, just braking and cornering suck...
It would be all even...and a lot cheaper.

Why dont we all drive Pikes Peak hill climb style unlimited class offroad prototypes?

You're doing it wrong (whaaaaaaaaaa!)
see I'm carrying the 'logic" that it makes no difference that due to lack of grip everybody is going slow so its all the same, further in the same reductionist logic.. In fact why don't we all drive bone stock cars??

It is the fundamental question: why do we bother modding cars at all?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Anders Green
Wouldn't we, if we could?

Anders

Possibly because we're not interested in that kind of vehicle, and that nothing we do there can be transfered to a fast road car for example?

...Where with "cars" we do use, nearly everything but final drive ratio CAN be transferred to fun road cars...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
You're doing it wrong (whaaaaaaaaaa!)
see I'm carrying the 'logic" that it makes no difference that due to lack of grip everybody is going slow so its all the same, further in the same reductionist logic.. In fact why don't we all drive bone stock cars??

It is the fundamental question: why do we bother modding cars at all?

We build and we race cars, generally, to the limit that the rules of a given series will allow.

Rules say no studs, so I roll with the punches. Considering the record entry numbers and multiple spectator points per stage, all packed with people, I would say I am not the only one.

---

I Seppanen, Car #240

Quote
john vanlandingham

Possibly because we're not interested in that kind of vehicle, and that nothing we do there can be transfered to a fast road car for example?

...Where with "cars" we do use, nearly everything but final drive ratio CAN be transferred to fun road cars...

That, and they are extremely expensive to build/operate, and they do not fit within the rules of my chosen sanctioning body.

Imagine those things hauling down a true rally stage. It would be sweet for 3 corners, then it would be broken.

---

I Seppanen, Car #240

I liked watching the live coverage from Parc Expose for the 3-5 minutes I watched it. Probably mostly cause I'm friends with Matthew though. I did think to myself, "Hope no sponsors are watching this and wondering about where the 5000+ spectators are."

The next two or three times I checked it it was offline. Then we went camping at 10.5k feet on Guanella Pass.

We were invited to come out for the week to help with video coverage. They offered to cover our expenses and provide some equipment for the week leading up to and weekend including the event to help them "How I am trying to implement that is to find people who are already proficient to some extent both in video and in Rally to assist us in order to alleviate as much of the necessary training as possible."
1 of 3 of our core crew even considered it. He thought, sweet, all expense paid trip to go to a rally. The other two of us thought, "sweet they'll pay for us to come out to teach their crew what we've spent thousands of dollars and multiple events learning."

I wish them luck and 70 entries to start out the year is promising. Though that the current owners have no passion invested in rallying makes me quite concerned for the future of Rally America.

If you don't want to race on ice without studs, don't go to Sno Drift. The arguments for/against/with/law/etc are so old and outdated and a total and complete 100% waste of time.

---

Grant Hughes

Quote
NoCoast


Though that the current owners have no passion invested in rallying makes me quite concerned for the future of Rally America.

I was wary that some random people were now at the helm. At the start of stage 1, Bill Fogg sr was walking up and down the line of cars filming with his iPhone. Talking to competitors and what not, he asked if we were having fun. I talked to Bill Fogg jr at service. Seemed like a cool guy, and he stuck a GoPro on the side of our car for a few stages. Im not ready to pass judgement on these guys just yet.

---

I Seppanen, Car #240

Quote
Aaron Luptak

Unfortunately, I don't think it's meaningful for anybody but us idiots who are already sucked in.

It might not need to expand **much** beyond that. If all of the Type 3s ,and some of the Types 2 , all tune in to watch , that might, in and of itself, be enough additional meaningful exposure to make a sponsor decide that yes sponsoring that rally is worth the ROI. it only has to help a few rallies to be worth it, IMO.

(and as the product gets better, rally popularity might right, esp for those "only if its 10 minutes from my house" crowd)

...

I'd prefer Studs. I've driven at least 20,000 miles on snowy roads, during "chain controls" in california / nevada. snowy , deep snow, hard packed snow, slushy snow, ice, ice with snow on top, snow with ice on top, both with water on top... etc , etc, etc,. Studs are more fun for me. you also get giong faster, and you will be going faster when /if you have an off.

If using Studded snows on icey roads is "changing the conditions" and (according to gene) those people should just go road racing.

Then what about choose the best tires for gravel roads? Is anyone on a BFGoodrich tire "changing the conditions" to the point where they should just go road racing?

I think you see the failure in that line of reasoning.

furthermore, driving on Ice is always driving on ice. studs make it more fun, but its still not gravel, clay, or pavement driving, its still very much ICE

at the same time, I'm big/ HUGE on our rally cars being street legal. yes we get special permissions to race (to close the road from traffic and to speed) But we are not asking for exemptions from being a street legal car... So if that state says studs are not permitted, then no competitors should get a special allowance.

So until/if Michigan allows studs, I'm all for snow drift not allowing them...

Rallies held in states that allow studs, should allow them.

and DAMN do i want to do big white winter.. hopefully i'll do better with my budget this year and be able to go up there. ON STUDS.

Alex, our 24 Hour On-call Staff Attorney Herr Advokat von Kessler proved the lie of the 30 year old stale argument "they're not allowed in Michigan , neener neener!!!"

Read his post up there a little, he quoted Cose and Administartive code as well, good work, I think he may have done some research in law a little before...

That really leaves "we've always run it that ways, so neener neener" and "It's too expensive neener neener"

It sure is odd everybody wants 2 pass recce, stage notes, wanky wanky, but seems like nobody even wants to consider this--this things other people wouldn't think of not doing.

Strange---but I dun't unnerstan a lot cause I hain't so bright.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 05:53PM by john vanlandingham.

Theres no argument that the Skellies car needed more prep. Derec did the shirts and thats good because he doesnt know what a tool is or how it works LOL.

The guys that did most of the work on the car built the car in about 3 weeks while driving over 2 hours to get to the shop. Where they had no clue where tools were or how to really build a true race car. Dan had said that he was up for 79 hours strait awake on aderal and redbull. I dont know where these kids get there passion but they deserve credit for even making it there.

Hopefully the guys didnt burn them selves out and start reprep sooner then a week before the next rally.

As for the ice and studs if i was a driver I dont think it would sway my decision to enter the event either way. Both would be challenging in there own way.

Being there as a spectator it was super slow and boring so studs would probably be better to watch.

All in all it was a fun weekend but I dont think I will go back without a car to rally. So I guess its time to get to work and finish this thing up!

---

First rally 2013
Rally car type AWD subaru
Total rallies as driver 6
Total rally cars built 2
Total rally cars caged 3
Total rally cars repaired from offs 4
Total years racing exp other then rally 19 yrs
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Quote
A1337STI
I'd prefer Studs. I've driven at least 20,000 miles on snowy roads, during "chain controls" in california / nevada. snowy , deep snow, hard packed snow, slushy snow, ice, ice with snow on top, snow with ice on top, both with water on top... etc , etc, etc,. Studs are more fun for me.

Street studs are overrated.
I run winter tires 8 months of the year and grew up in the Canadian Prairies. When I was young, studded tires were king, today ... meh.

I've driven the same tire with studs, WCRC Studs and studless. The aggressive studs allowed by WCRC rules are great in softer ice/snow but on hard ice suck big time as they don't allow the rubber to do any work. First event re allowed those studs we had two cars sail off the same icy corner and park side by side. You could see the stud marks in the ice. The longer studs also have a lot more torque on them and rip out without a second thought.

Same tire, same conditions Street Studs vs. Studless - fractional difference - driving skill and sidewall depth probably has more of an impact. (IE, running the same diameter tire on a 15" rim vs. a 17" rim you'll have more useable grip with the 15" rim - but the car will feel really floaty.)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 07:41PM by Morison.

Quote
Morison

Quote
A1337STI
I'd prefer Studs. I've driven at least 20,000 miles on snowy roads, during "chain controls" in california / nevada. snowy , deep snow, hard packed snow, slushy snow, ice, ice with snow on top, snow with ice on top, both with water on top... etc , etc, etc,. Studs are more fun for me.

Street studs are overrated.
I run winter tires 8 months of the year and grew up in the Canadian Prairies. When I was young, studded tires were king, today ... meh.

I've driven the same tire with studs, WCRC Studs and studless. The aggressive studs allowed by WCRC rules are great in softer ice/snow but on hard ice suck big time as they don't allow the rubber to do any work. First event re allowed those studs we had two cars sail off the same icy corner and park side by side. You could see the stud marks in the ice. The longer studs also have a lot more torque on them and rip out without a second thought.

Same tire, same conditions Street Studs vs. Studless - fractional difference - driving skill and sidewall depth probably has more of an impact. (IE, running the same diameter tire on a 15" rim vs. a 17" rim you'll have more useable grip with the 15" rim - but the car will feel really floaty.)

Sorry Keith, but John doesn't think so ...so all the people who entered the event had to have had a miserable time and no fun at all. just the way it is.

ANYTHING less than a warm tramac event with soft slicks or a hardpak dirt track with soft slicks is a compromise in traction. So a rainy tarmac event has less traction, hard gravel, soft gravel, wet gravel, snow, ice whatever has less traction. To arbitrarily say that an ice or snow event must only be run on studs is just silly. Someone could just as easily say that any rally that was on snow wouldn't be fun because they could go faster on wet gravel. Tarmac drivers could make the same claim for gravel. It is all a varying degree of grip and no one, least of all someone sitting on their ass thousands of miles away has the right to decide who had fun or not.