At the event party Saturday night, I stood and listened to a conversation that the 0 car for the event was on studded tires (don't know what kind) and the co-driver stated they were easily setting top 4 times without really trying. Can you imagine Higgns or L'Estage on studs? That magical 80 mph barrier would be broken quite easily. And then the event would either have to find new roads or go away totally.

---

It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favour of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion.
William Ralph Inge

TANSTAAFL

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Vorpal_Rally
At the event party Saturday night, I stood and listened to a conversation that the 0 car for the event was on studded tires (don't know what kind) and the co-driver stated they were easily setting top 4 times without really trying. Can you imagine Higgns or L'Estage on studs? That magical 80 mph barrier would be broken quite easily. And then the event would either have to find new roads or go away totally.

Yeah. Old rallyists from the midwest. I'm sure they were. I'm sure they were.

---

Grant Hughes

I've done a bunch of driving on slippery tracks (www.winterdrive.com) and late last year got the chance to run Andros Continentals out on the track on an open class subie, a stripped 2.5RS, and a bone stock WRX wagon. These cars also ran on Blizzak WS-70s during other parts of the same day.

There is simply no comparison...the studs are far and away better...but its not for the outright grip they offer, its because they are more consistent. Many folks on here are correct that modern studless tires are leaps and bounds better than they used to be. The tricky part with using a studless tire is that you have to be extremely mindful of where you put the car - i.e. are you searching for the grippy bits on the road.

My example is a downhill off camber hairpin turn. You can see the exit to this turn in an old video I made 3ish years ago (driving on 17" WS-60s), and my approach to it at 1:02ish). Note that the track was on the pretty grippy side of things that day and that the track was more slippery in the second video.





With the studless tires, you had to make sure that you set up the car to exit with your front tires on some grippy snow, or else you'd have this fantastic oversteer that would wash out into epic understeer right off the course.

With the studs, you could huck your car into the turn backwards knowing that if you were on patchy snow, or just the glare ice, your traction was similar.

In a rally where you're essentially approaching blind on every corner (sure you have recce, but after 10 cars have gone, its anyone's guess if there's any grip still to be had on the inside of a corner, so you have to assume there isn't any and slow accordingly). Anybody want to guess which one is more fun to drive and more fun to watch?





EDIT: Just want to toss out there that I've never had the chance to drive on AO34s so I'm not sure how those stack up against the latest Blizzak offerings, other than to know that the Yokohamas have better sidewall protection.

Dave



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2012 04:11PM by DaveK.

We tore the sidewall of two Blizzak tires on a slightly hidden rock on Guanella pass this weekend.
Nokian Hakka 2-5. Basically their best studdable option from 2005 or so onward. Studdable tire, still rock on ice.
Nokian Hakka 10, now called the Nordman. Studdable and with or without studs absolutely rock on packed snow but without studs the ice performance leaves something to be desired.

The hardest thing with our potential future snow event in Colorado is going to be the sidewalls. These will likely be roads that most would not want to drive on in the summer so there will be hidden rocks and such. If we can get multiple events, it might even be worthwhile to start importing the Black Rocket snow/ice tires as a specialty race tire for our event. Or maybe for the 0 cars to try to dig out and expose and big hazards like the one we hit Saturday.

---

Grant Hughes

Maybe for a course closing / sweep vehicle too?

snow hill climb? :p sounds worth the long long drive out

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john vanlandingham
Whatever Gene. ya never answered if you ever did an all ice event and how much fun you had...

Morrison, you might be interested to know that in the real great White North, it is the preferred winter surface is very very cold ice and frozen road bed....

But what do they know, buncha herring chokers , square heads and finn-djavlar...

No John I've never done an ice event, never will, never will do a snow event either, don't like cold but its not about me (never claimed it was btw) and it certainly isn't about you and your narrow sighted opinions and overstated results.

You somehow seem to think you speak for the whole rally world, you don't. The event had a large entry inspite of not having your stamp of approval. It is an event that is an extreme challenge but the only one where mega bucks and turbos don't have huge advantage they normally do. It is an event that rewards people who have patience, talent and a $100 Blizzak is affordable for the majority of the field versus a $500 properly studded competiton tire. Every one going in knew studs weren't allowed this year..just like last year and the year before that...yet they came in droves.

Rally is supposed to be about the challenge or did you forget that along the way?

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heymagic

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john vanlandingham
Whatever Gene. ya never answered if you ever did an all ice event and how much fun you had...

Morrison, you might be interested to know that in the real great White North, it is the preferred winter surface is very very cold ice and frozen road bed....

But what do they know, buncha herring chokers , square heads and finn-djavlar...

No John I've never done an ice event, never will, never will do a snow event either, don't like cold but its not about me (never claimed it was btw) and it certainly isn't about you and your narrow sighted opinions and overstated results.

You somehow seem to think you speak for the whole rally world, you don't. The event had a large entry inspite of not having your stamp of approval. It is an event that is an extreme challenge but the only one where mega bucks and turbos don't have huge advantage they normally do. It is an event that rewards people who have patience, talent and a $100 Blizzak is affordable for the majority of the field versus a $500 properly studded competiton tire. Every one going in knew studs weren't allowed this year..just like last year and the year before that...yet they came in droves.

Rally is supposed to be about the challenge or did you forget that along the way?

FYI, I hate the cold as well and it was my first/snow ice adventure. You'd be shocked how hot you are. During transits we were driving with the windows down in a blizzard! It's a lot of work keeping the car on the road. Now if you break and have to sit there for a while, then yes you'll be cold.

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czwalga

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heymagic

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john vanlandingham
Whatever Gene. ya never answered if you ever did an all ice event and how much fun you had...

Morrison, you might be interested to know that in the real great White North, it is the preferred winter surface is very very cold ice and frozen road bed....

But what do they know, buncha herring chokers , square heads and finn-djavlar...

No John I've never done an ice event, never will, never will do a snow event either, don't like cold but its not about me (never claimed it was btw) and it certainly isn't about you and your narrow sighted opinions and overstated results.

You somehow seem to think you speak for the whole rally world, you don't. The event had a large entry inspite of not having your stamp of approval. It is an event that is an extreme challenge but the only one where mega bucks and turbos don't have huge advantage they normally do. It is an event that rewards people who have patience, talent and a $100 Blizzak is affordable for the majority of the field versus a $500 properly studded competiton tire. Every one going in knew studs weren't allowed this year..just like last year and the year before that...yet they came in droves.

Rally is supposed to be about the challenge or did you forget that along the way?

FYI, I hate the cold as well and it was my first/snow ice adventure. You'd be shocked how hot you are. During transits we were driving with the windows down in a blizzard! It's a lot of work keeping the car on the road. Now if you break and have to sit there for a while, then yes you'll be cold.

I was sweating while shoveling the deck a couple weeks ago....

We all have our likes and dislikes. I like gravel, always have. I was ripping bumpers off cars on trees when I was a kid, long before rally was thought of around here. Don't much care for tarmac but I'm smart enough to know how to drive on it and I can make it work. I've driven on snow and ice of all forms over the years (old fart) , studs, chains, snow and ice tires, fast and slow. Just not my deal. I can do it, I spun out once when I was 16 and 1 mile from our house first time driving on the crap, never happened again. Never been to a ski resort...pretty sheltered.

John certainly gets to have his opinion, but that is all it is. It shouldn't over shadow the hard work the organizers put into SD or the obvious success it was. He should be able to acknowledge the skill it takes to drive on ice without studs and realize that lots of people can still have fun.

This is no different than someone ranting over event speeds being too fast, too dusty, too daylight, too dark, too slow, too muddy, or running on tulips, or seeing blue Subarus, or running only NRS or RA events, or running a non-sanctioned event. There are people who manage to glean enjoyment from being hung from the rafters with meat hooks under their shoulder blades so you can't tell me that running on snow and ice on non-studded tires isn't an experience to remember and enjoy for many people.

Here is my response. Studs may be faster, but I like to maximize stage time, and SD had 3 hours of stage time! Seems like a great challenge to me, and not likely to destroy the car. Bonus! I would rather do that than run Tahola again.

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heymagic
John certainly gets to have his opinion, but that is all it is. It shouldn't over shadow the hard work the organizers put into SD or the obvious success it was. He should be able to acknowledge the skill it takes to drive on ice without studs and realize that lots of people can still have fun.

Gene I said:

Quote

In before: "its the same conditions for everybody neener neener"

and : "It's illegal to use studs on Michigan roads neener neener"

Oh yeah, "They're too expensive, did you think about that?"

And other boilerplate answers I have forgotten?smoking smiley

EDIT: damn I missed out making the girls some lunch...oh well....

Then when a lot of OTHER people started "discussing" I basically pretty clearly just asked "Why not?"

I understand it takes skill: first Winter National I went to was icier than shit and I was on SNOW tires, and going into the last stage, a long one, I was in a nice comfy 4-5th, down by maybe 1m40s and after the stage in the lead in Gp2 by about 1m30 or so.
But it was night and I don't see too well at night, and we broke the body both sides where the upper shock pins poke thru...well the shock poked thru---DNF at the morning first MTC while leading, bummer....
So I understand....yep it takes some skills.

I am and have been merely ASKING why not....it's pretty sucky that you try and phrase it like i am attempting to speak for "everybody"....

I ASK because I know the same old answer are at best knee jerk answers, at worst bullshit and have been outright lies in years past....

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This is no different than someone ranting over event speeds being too fast, too dusty, too daylight, too dark, too slow, too muddy, or running on tulips, or seeing blue Subarus, or running only NRS or RA events, or running a non-sanctioned event.

Why do you have to say ranting? I just ask "why not" pretty quitely, seems more are "ranting" on 'the other side"...

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There are people who manage to glean enjoyment from being hung from the rafters with meat hooks under their shoulder blades so you can't tell me that running on snow and ice on non-studded tires isn't an experience to remember and enjoy for many people.

I didn't say or suggest that, you're twisting words and outright putting meaning where there wasn't.

I have asked essentially "do you think it would have been MORE fun with studs?"

A question. An invitation to dialog.....sorta the raison d'etre of on-line discussion forums.

Couse it doesn't happen if people characterize the mere asking of a question "ranting"...

Tsk tsk.......

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham

Quote
heymagic
John certainly gets to have his opinion, but that is all it is. It shouldn't over shadow the hard work the organizers put into SD or the obvious success it was. He should be able to acknowledge the skill it takes to drive on ice without studs and realize that lots of people can still have fun.

Gene I said:

Quote

In before: "its the same conditions for everybody neener neener"

and : "It's illegal to use studs on Michigan roads neener neener"

Oh yeah, "They're too expensive, did you think about that?"

And other boilerplate answers I have forgotten?smoking smiley

EDIT: damn I missed out making the girls some lunch...oh well....

Then when a lot of OTHER people started "discussing" I basically pretty clearly just asked "Why not?"

I understand it takes skill: first Winter National I went to was icier than shit and I was on SNOW tires, and going into the last stage, a long one, I was in a nice comfy 4-5th, down by maybe 1m40s and after the stage in the lead in Gp2 by about 1m30 or so.
But it was night and I don't see too well at night, and we broke the body both sides where the upper shock pins poke thru...well the shock poked thru---DNF at the morning first MTC while leading, bummer....
So I understand....yep it takes some skills.

I am and have been merely ASKING why not....it's pretty sucky that you try and phrase it like i am attempting to speak for "everybody"....

I ASK because I know the same old answer are at best knee jerk answers, at worst bullshit and have been outright lies in years past....

Quote

This is no different than someone ranting over event speeds being too fast, too dusty, too daylight, too dark, too slow, too muddy, or running on tulips, or seeing blue Subarus, or running only NRS or RA events, or running a non-sanctioned event.

Why do you have to say ranting? I just ask "why not" pretty quitely, seems more are "ranting" on 'the other side"...

Quote

There are people who manage to glean enjoyment from being hung from the rafters with meat hooks under their shoulder blades so you can't tell me that running on snow and ice on non-studded tires isn't an experience to remember and enjoy for many people.

I didn't say or suggest that, you're twisting words and outright putting meaning where there wasn't.

I have asked essentially "do you think it would have been MORE fun with studs?"

A question. An invitation to dialog.....sorta the raison d'etre of on-line discussion forums.

Couse it doesn't happen if people characterize the mere asking of a question "ranting"...

Tsk tsk.......

Well then I read more into your posts than you intended, I apologize for that. We're both pretty passionate about the sport, slightly different perspectives and maybe we disagree a bit from time to time. No big deal I still love ya (in a manly way of course ) and we both want rally and ralliests to succeed.

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john vanlandingham
Why do you have to say ranting?

Maybe because you rant about things all the time.
Everyone I talk to says you rant... come to think of it you're the only one I can think of who doesn't say you rant.
But Gene's right. Impassioned discussion can often seem like ranting - most of us here can probably be accused of the same.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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heymagic
No big deal I still love ya (in a manly way of course )

No tongue!

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Real men don't need no studs...

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heymagic
Real men don't need no studs...

That has to be the most borring slow thing I have ever seen. I was not entertained.