'02 update & exciting stuff at wrc

your back must be hurting. jus' kidding . Congrats on getting a REAL welder.

+1 on not learning to weld on your first cage. TIG welding does requires a bit more time both in tubing prep (should be clean of scale, oil and wiped down prior to welding, clean rod etc) although personally I don't think it's ridiculous. However you need to be comfortable welding on one knee while operating the TIG pedal with your other knee, holding the torch above your head, and keeping a consistent distance and torch angle. It's not particularly easy and really way beyond where someone just starting out should attempt.

That being said I disagree with some of the other sentiments expressed here about MIG welds somehow being easier and better for a novice. With a properly set up machine under guidance of someone experienced it would be quicker to learn but I've seen plenty of cars with ok cage designs that I could take apart with a hammer that were MIGd by some moron with a 120V Sears flux core welder. MIG is great for throwing weld on top of joints and not getting root penetration if you don't know what you're doing. Personally I think it's easier to screw up with a MIG and really not notice it. While I think the MIG welds posted here look good you'll note that the edges of the welds aren't particularly lapped in to the tubes in some cases which would be a very quick indicator of too little heat/too high travel speed/too much rod in a TIG. No necessarily a problem with the MIG but more difficult to tell without cutting it apart IMO. Having recently cut a MIGd cage out of my car I can attest to some 'pro' shops not getting decent penetration and, frankly, I doubt most novices would know the difference looking at the finished weld. And I've seen plenty of undercut with a MIG, which is harder to correct in process than with the TIG.

TIG can be made to look good with less than perfect weld quality, particularly with pulsing, but I would say it is less common. I would agree with John's statement that you should learn to weld on brackets on the bench for a couple of years before attempting something that requires out of position welding, difficult to access areas, and is critical to your survival.

For what it's worth I'm TIGing my cage but I've been TIGing for 10 years and have already built (and raced) 3 formula cars from the ground up with it. The formula cars were a lot easier than the cage for the Subaru as there was a lot less out of position welding.

Btw, what kind of tubing is pictured in Sean Medcroft's car? The color looks strange (matte silver instead of dark green, almost galvanized) to me.

My 0.02.

Steve

yep, agreed! its not a big decision for me and (nicely I have all options now if I could just get off the forum and continue doing prep work)


anyone share a this vision? of making a kit car for the 1955 bmw 507 model omg - go!

Steve, that was all DOM in my last car. Anti splatter on the tubes made the color look the way it did.

I tig'd my cage because I did not own a MIG welder. Nor was I as good of a mig welder as I was with a tig.

I spent about 1.5 years with the tig before starting my cage. If I did it again... I'd probably TIG it just because I hate mig welding out of position. I'm not a fan of spark showers. Call me a wuss, but I have both welders, so I'm gonna pick my battles, hahaha.

Definitely stitch with a MIG though. DEAR GOD it's horrible with a TIG. Like, make you scream is so ridiculous, hahaa.

Also, Mig'n body patches is pretty sweet, Tig is a bit harder, but seems to keep the heat/distorting down.

(I'll mig all sheetmetal on the car for convenience, though. WAY faster.)

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

agree mig is best for sheet metal (aside from lead)

and Im noticing a common thread between some of the commentators- one which I dont share, namely the part about throwing sparks and splatter everywhere while mig welding - i dont get that so much when wire welding (because im not self taught on a sears machine - instead i completed 1.5 years of welding from certified instructors, and practice I got while getting my AS in collision repair) so while i dont pretend to know everything, okay maybe I do :p ...

but yeah, whatever you all said, yes I Agree! Thanks
now what about that 507

Quote
Gravel Spray
Sorry man, tig welding a cage is a big BIG waste of time. Typically, it's a chest puffer type exercise..

There is no benefit what so ever.

I have access to a Tinius Olsen, care to put your tig joint against my Mig joint?


Edit... your pictured tig weld... it's a wash bead on the nearside, big no no right there.

What do you mean by wash bead, and why are they not desirable?
I've got a guess:
I can see how you would not be getting as good of penetration. Also making a wide and flat weld will increase heat input while also creating a larger bending arm to the weld.

tire sizes - on a mission:
front 185 / 60/ 13
rear 205 / 60/ 13

Quote
Littlelina
tire sizes - on a mission:
front 185 / 60/ 13
rear 205 / 60/ 13

welp, the dmacks come in almost those sizes - but a 70 series, rather than 60.

But I'm sure there's a wide range of inexpensive final drives for an '02 so you can work around that gearing issue

---

KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Quote
Littlelina
tire sizes - on a mission:
front 185 / 60/ 13
rear 205 / 60/ 13

Lina, where do you get all the crazy ideas you come up with?

You have a 240 hp motor in that?
Got plans for a 240 hp motor?

Then what do you think you need some massive fat tire for?

Without a real close ratio box--which I don't think you have or can afford---no point in tyring to make a bazzillion horse powers.
With the severe limitations of the 2002 head and manifolding you'll probably never make more than 140 hp. A 185/60 tire would be more than enough on the back...

In some things bigger is not better-er.

And just between us'ns planning on 14" would leave more room for one of the major shortcomings of the 02 and that's brakes...

A 62cm tall 15" would be even better...

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

the brakes in front stock are 4 piston caliper with an option to add a second caliper to each of the front disks

this tire size is what I currently have on there it works great and the fenders are rolled ;-)
is this why I alreay had to replace one of the final drive axle seals? that thing is a beast

I don't even know where to start.

13 inch rally tire choices are severly limited and they are expensive. 14 inch is only slightly better. In the end you need to look at the over all tire diameter and how that works with the differential ratio and engine output.

With a low power M10 you want a fairly narrow tire. Staggared tire sizes are pointless for rallying.

You don't need particularly big brakes on loose surfaces. I would concentrate on getting discs onto the rear.

My advice is to build a solid basic car with no big mistakes. You can always make improvments later. Learn how to rally by doing some TSDs. Learn how to drive by going to some driving schools, track days and rallycrosses.

Keep asking questions and listening!

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Quote
Rallymech
I don't even know where to start.


With a low power M10 you want a fairly narrow tire. Staggared tire sizes are pointless for rallying.

You don't need particularly big brakes on loose surfaces. I would concentrate on getting discs onto the rear.

My advice is to build a solid basic car with no big mistakes. You can always make improvments later. Learn how to rally by doing some TSDs. Learn how to drive by going to some driving schools, track days and rallycrosses.

quote]

what I know and cant be shaken wider tire = more grip
the M10 block design is still winning races today
if I dont need bigger brakes on loose surfaces why would I go through all the fuss of installing franken- disks on the rear from some vw/bmw parts shelf if all the bimmer people end of saying it doesnt make that much difference, especially since my power will be so "low"

disks all around just take the heat better? properly adjusted drum brakes work just fine on a rear wheel driven lightish, well balanced car.
my driving is just fine, which is why I feel confident enough driving on such funny sized (stock size 13" wheels
right now I drive a newer car at laguna seca (maybe you heard of it) and a few rally cross events/schools and snow school. and I know what I build will be proper as hell



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 12:35AM by Littlelina.

Never mind.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
Never mind.

---

Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.