Lina,

Don't get all butt hurt if I point out some things that you haven't figured out yet. I thought that is why you are here, to learn.

Wider tires have more grip, up to a point, on asphalt. This does not hold true on gravel, sand, dirt, snow or ice. When you were in Sweden I'm sure you noticed that the cars were on mandated tire sizes. In years past, before control tires, the teams would run very narrow tires for best grip. On a gravel road you will go faster on a 175 instead of a 205. Your life will also be much easier with 14 or 15 inch wheels because: you can find them, they are less expensive and you can get rally tires for them.

Yes, the M10 can make lots of power. I have one in the shop that dynoed 500+ at the wheels. This is a miserable car to drive. In rally you need driveable power. There is also a limit to how much of that power you can put to the ground due to traction. You only need to make as much power as you can put to the ground.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with drum brakes on a street car. The problem comes when they get full of water or mud. Laguna Seca doesn't have much of that does it?

I am happy to hear that you have gotten some driver training. That is an important first step. Now you need to learn the mechanics of how a rally works. Driving TSDs and volunteering at stage rallys is an excellent way to do that. Find a co-driver/navigator now! Develop the partnership.

Above all else keep you mind open. You severly limit yourself when you are unable to accept new ideas.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

thanks, done all of that (volunteered at stage rallies, done some tsd's, studied road books, discuss ideas with managers and teams of wrc, etc) but yes as always good advice...thanks
not planning on loading up on power with no where to go - 13" is my starting choice for now - I have never before been discouraged by having a hard to find part (I live in the bay area, know lots of folks and always able to get what I need - in fact have a Cooper dealer looking for some sizes now ) perhaps 185s all the way around would be okay too - but it just looks SOO nice wiht 205s on the back - it looks RIGHT! and it handles great - maybe hard for someone else
14 and 15 " would necessitate beefing up lots of other stuff with the brakes and suspension - and I just want to see how it works as near-stock - I think it will be very agile

the events I prep for include gravel, tarmac, some mild deserty So cal stuff and definately the Targa newfoundland - Im pretty close to bill arnolds shop in san rafael and bounce stuff off of him often - since he's won it 4 or 5 times in a '69 bmw
I did initially plan of disks in rears - but I want check out the stock set up first and its all new and fine for now -
there are lots of chipmunks at laguna, and sand on some of the turns
and I do wet track days there sometimes fun stuf,f

First and foremost, there is a massive difference between a competition rally tire and any street tire. I would not give the street tire option another thought.

There is no advantage to running a 13 inch wheel! Making your life intentionaly more difficult for no advantage is stupid!

"Looks right" does not help you.

"Handles great" on asphalt, not on a rally stage in California.

Using an apropriate width 14 or 15 inch wheel requires no modifications to the car.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

I didn't see your last comment before I hit post.

A car set up for gravel stages will be ok on tarmac. A car set up for tarmac will be shit on gravel.

A quick and dirty lesson on brakes: Brakes convert the energy of the moving car into heat. That heat is stored and dissapated by the rotor and or drum. The stock 2002 brake system has enough hydraulic force and friction surface to lock the wheels at full speed on asphalt. The question becomes: how often can it do this? In other words, how much heat can be stored and how quickly can that heat be dissapated? This is a primary function of "big brakes". Disc brakes dissapate heat better than drums. Putting two calipers on the same disc means that the disc has to deal with much more heat and less cooling. Discs are easier to work on and deal with water and dirt much better. Larger disc brakes are a clear advantage.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

This being aimed a subtle clarifications of Robert's words for those who are actually interested in learning...readers who may be totally dismayed and thinking there's nothing useful here.

Quote
Rallymech
I didn't see your last comment before I hit post.

A car set up for gravel stages will be ok on tarmac. A car set up for tarmac will be shit on gravel.

A quick and dirty lesson on brakes: Brakes convert the energy of the moving car into heat. That heat is stored and dissapated by the rotor and or drum. The stock 2002 brake system has enough hydraulic force and friction surface to lock the wheels at full speed on asphalt. The question becomes: how often can it do this? In other words, how much heat can be stored and how quickly can that heat be dissapated? This is a primary function of "big brakes". Disc brakes dissapate heat better than drums. Putting two calipers on the same disc means that the disc has to deal with much more heat and less cooling. Discs are easier to work on and deal with water and dirt much better. Larger disc brakes are a clear advantage.

Uh, er I have made a buncha big brake kits, rear disc conversions for cars originally drum, and BIG DRUM mods even..

It ain't about if you can lock the stock brakes.
Its about, I thought, getting enough brake force so that you can brake hard and easily modulate the brakes at the ideal "just short of lock up" point..
When I get people reporting that back from gravel guys with no servo, and asphalt cars with OEM servo/booster/power assist, I know I have done it right.

Braking hard is a difficult skill to do right, even more difficult to do right every time, far harder than any other skill. Very very few master it at amateur level.

This is a fawking bad joke, a particularly absurd joke on an alleged performance road car weighing in as a street car at a tad over 1000kg:
http://bremboaftermarket.com/It/Car_Disc_Catalogue/Catalogue_Detail_Image.aspx?Code=581b6a66-ed54-417f-8f74-b800dcfa5006

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I was trying to keep it basic so I left out the modulation part.

---

Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

Quote
Rallymech
I was trying to keep it basic so I left out the modulation part.

I wussn't. The ability to modulate without concentrating too much is the key to happiness.

I was addressing those who give a fuck.

This:


And even a BMW 2002 will eventually go fast enough.

But its only by careful interplay between this: (the green blue and teal parts)


and this:

that true enlightenment will occur.

Took me YEARS of 20+hrs a week training to get it right...

(then again I hain't a natural,and haint too bright.)

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Lina,

Listen to these dudes... I didn't

I have 13" wheels... and when I recently rebuilt the Justy, I knocked out the fenders large enough that I can run a standard 14" rally tire once I find a way to get the gearing right so all 80 hamsters are able to put the sort of torque to the wheels that I can run something just a bit taller. (Oh and John if yer listen-n I tink I gots dat fingered... the ECVT AWD has a way higher final drive, just need to find a transmission to pull apart)

You want to know what I paid for a set of 13" rally tires... $700. Can I get some used junk to test/practice with? No f'n way. If I ran 14's or 15's um, well I've had folks offer to GIVE me tires for doing service work... GIVE as in FREE 99!

Drum brakes suck. Yep they work, and they stop things, but they suck.

Bigger brakes are better, particularly when you're talking about getting bigger then something that will fit inside a 13" wheel. I mean really... if what John posted for rotors is right, then you have smaller brakes then my 1800lb car. And everything about modulation is right. Have you ridden? All it takes to understand modulation is trying to slow 2 wheels of fury from speed, particularly on a loose surface. Those little (short not wide!) tires and brakes will work great on pavement, but trying to make 'em work on gravel? Get the car under 1700 and maybe.

As one "non-conforming-car anarchist" to another, do everything you can to make that uber-cool machine conform to the status quo. Then not only will it look and sound cool, it will work too.

Matt

why cant this forum uplaod a picture more than 256 kb dammit...
...I wasnt thinking of using street tires in place of rally tires - duhh! how dumb do you think I am - I think some things really get lost on translation here...

doing my best - the 13 incher turbines (aluminum wheels) are one option especially street/tarmac.
when I first picked it up, it had 14" bbs mesh wheels on it - and there was some rubbing going on, now that the suspension is all in, probably will fit 14s okay (but I think Im gonna ask pirelli to bring back the 13 inch rally tire and emboss my name on it for me personally!!)

I get all the stuff about braking, my goal is to bring it to stage and finish - will not try to go all out fast and push it over the edge... especially since my co-drivers favorite word is "BRAKE!!"
so whatever I build will be driven within its own limitation until I improve (thats the process right)
and John, what you said about hard braking and mastery - thank you! that makes me feel very good about myself _ finallyyyy

Robert - again thanks for the great explanations on braking performance 101. dont worry Im not planning on doubling up on the calipers in front (70% of braking effort) just wanted to desrcibe the cars design feature with mounts for secondary calipers - down the road, I will likey up the ante on the rear with disks for now stock will have to do - i have bigger fish to fry ... the cage, fuel and electrical systems at the moment still needing attention.
brand new stock brakes lock up nice (about 4inches to full stop), and thats with tires affectionately called "smoothies" cuz theres no tread left on them, good for sitting around in the shop or going around the block a few times, its sooo much fun to drive around town (did i mention the windshield and pretty much everything is out right now) anyway- obviously still about 1 year out from my first event
but dont worry gentlemen, I will listen and learn - painful as it is



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2012 11:54PM by Littlelina.

So how's that BMW doing? 10.5mo later, cage done? Ready to rock and roll? Figure out brake situation?

helloo - cage is done (minus few piddly details)
pretty much all TIG welded
still needs paint
I had to "settle" for yokohama 13" advantage rally tires and powder coated all sets of wheels, grill and bumpers in "new white" sooo pretty. taking a longer than desired break after the cage work was done (*for health reasons) but planning on attacking the remaining metal fab, paint, armor (oh , did I mention it's been running this whole time?) I did ebay score some weber 40s side drafts that are begging to be installed
thanks for asking!
LL

Quote
Littlelina
helloo - cage is done (minus few piddly details)
pretty much all TIG welded
still needs paint
I had to "settle" for yokohama 13" advantage rally tires and powder coated all sets of wheels, grill and bumpers in "new white" sooo pretty. taking a longer than desired break after the cage work was done (*for health reasons) but planning on attacking the remaining metal fab, paint, armor (oh , did I mention it's been running this whole time?) I did ebay score some weber 40s side drafts that are begging to be installed
thanks for asking!
LL

For all the work, regardless of the time,or cost, 40s are well, how shall be put it? more suited to a 1600 road car...but you're the expert in all things BMW because BMWs are so unique in in....wait what is so unique about BMW 2002??

rotsa ruck.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I dunno, sometimes less is more - even with the single carb currently it has lots of torque (respectively to I dont know what) Im not an expert, just follow instinct and availability - I was advised by one of Stirling Moss' mechanics to 'get a pair of weber side drafts, just to have them" and so I did - I think it will be plenty for my four speed. and maybe even a little hoppy in the street - you know like a bunny

Quote
Littlelina
I dunno, sometimes less is more - even with the single carb currently it has lots of torque (respectively to I dont know what) Im not an expert, just follow instinct and availability - I was advised by one of Stirling Moss' mechanics to 'get a pair of weber side drafts, just to have them" and so I did - I think it will be plenty for my four speed. and maybe even a little hoppy in the street - you know like a bunny

Well Sterling's boys are old enough to remember when 2x 40s were sold on Italian road car 1600s, 45s on rally 1600s and 48s on roadrace 1600s...

Unless they're so old they starting to forget things..

The point is that there's both work and expense and if its going to be done it might be nice to get more than a 5% increase over the ubiquitous 32/36 DGV...

Whatever, I'm sure it'll be rip-snorting.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.