F-Cup action from Valkeala, Finland

I dunno - the evo a 7:35 did a great job of the corners.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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NoCoast
Yeah, the gearbox becomes 2-5 instead of 1-4 but how is that much different than my Merkur with it's 100% useless 5th gear.

Evidently Grant, you still don't usnderstand gears or your car runs crappy..
The 'good" T5 combined with a 4.3 or so means you have a zero to 120mph 1st thru 4th.

And then a "long distance transit gear" and can cruise at 65-75 at nice lazy rpm.

The BMW mean 1st is for loading the car, or gas station parking lots etc but 2nd thru 4th. If you have the same 4.3 gear 9so that the car still his hard accel thru 3rd and 4th to redline, now you will cruise it who the fawk knows for rpm in 5th for long distances..

Or: a decent 4 speed plus--nobody says you have to keep your 0.63 top gear, you can get a 0.72 or whatever----a decent "long transit gear"

versus:
a 4 speed wiith a useless gear...

Which just happens to have no alternates humans can afford, and which so happens to be REALLY expensive to open up...

No big deal, just more money.

What final drive you have in the back.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham

Perosonally I "dislike" weak things, and everything about the CAR on BMWs is always a step or two smaller---car size for car size---than other things out there. Ball joint size, tie rod diam., pivot bolt size, gearbox size, ring gear size, CV size...

I agree with you on most of that stuff but the ZF gearbox in the E36 BMWs is actually pretty beefy. Everything about it, gears, synchros, bearings, shift forks, is bigger than a T-5 for example. It's a pain in the ass to work on, though.

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john vanlandingham
And that's not even mentioning the shit like bizarre "made for urban Germany" gearing with 4.25 first, and 2.86 final drive..

4.20 first and 3.23 final drive, actually, but yeah they're pretty screwy.

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Doivi Clarkinen

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john vanlandingham

Perosonally I "dislike" weak things, and everything about the CAR on BMWs is always a step or two smaller---car size for car size---than other things out there. Ball joint size, tie rod diam., pivot bolt size, gearbox size, ring gear size, CV size...

I agree with you on most of that stuff but the ZF gearbox in the E36 BMWs is actually pretty beefy. Everything about it, gears, synchros, bearings, shift forks, is bigger than a T-5 for example. It's a pain in the ass to work on, though.

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john vanlandingham
And that's not even mentioning the shit like bizarre "made for urban Germany" gearing with 4.25 first, and 2.86 final drive..

4.20 first and 3.23 final drive, actually, but yeah they're pretty screwy.

Dave, we all know for a given distance between centers, a given design box that they gear em different all over but the ratio from clutch input shaft down to cluster gear is the first consideration after shaft c-c.
A box like the horrrible n.a. Mustang T5 with a 4.08 first has a lower torque capacity, only around 235 ft/lbs that the nearly as awful Thunderchicken Turd-boat with 3.97 first which has a lower torque capacity than a V^ one with 3.5 first which has a lower.......

all the way to 2.95 first which has over 300 ft/lbs rating..

Look on a T5 chart..

The Beemer boxes LOOK big, seem to have decent---but factory only---bearings, but with a 4.20 or whatever the fawk, first,

unless they have done something real strange, right there just went a whole lotta capacity..

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham


That does bring up a point: it's sooooooooooooooooooooo competitive, why hasn't somebody over there figured out what's now an established fact* that studded tires are slower and take advantage of that fact, and kick everybody's collective asses by using some Blaztzaks or Yoke-your -hammas?

I thought Finns were tough, but it seems that they are scardy-cats and rely on crutches of skinny tires and lame ass studs.

John,

i've said this before too. "studless is faster than studded".

We are making reference to DOT studded tires, to a properly prepped studless tire. I have a decent amount of experience with this.

The only shot we have on this side of the pond would be to run "DOT studs" which are a normal road tire, with short small studs inserted into them.

http://www.brunowessel.com/catalog/images/8x13_TSC_Large.jpg

Stud sticks out of the tire MAYBE 1/8"-3/16". And they don't stay there for long.... Get maybe 100 studs into a tire

The rally studs, put in the Michelins, Dmacks, Pirellis, etc

http://www.brunowessel.com/catalog/images/9x20_Rally_Large.jpg

These studs stick themselves WAY outta the tire...about 7mm to be exact. and they run about 300 studs a tire.

No contest....real rally studs are awesome, and fast. Grip is as good...maybe better than Gravel tires on Gravel roads!! But as i mentioned...look at how far these guys are planting themselves into the trees!! They are going well beyond the snow banks! In Canada/US where we've got sometimes non existant banks (sno* drift), there will be nothing to slow people down....and we've also got "questionable" crowd control! Atleast all the Finns know what rally is, and where cars will end up...look at the f'ing tow strap they've got with 20 loops for people to grab! Here you've got the typical "merican" with his kid...or the typical "canadian" who's 3/4 of the way through a case of Molson's by the time the cars get there!

"DOT" studs vs a good studless tire like a Bridgestone, Yokohama, or Toyo.... overall the studless tire will be faster. Pathetic little 1/8" studs do nothing for you when you are in snow...they never meat the ice, and you are relying on a harder rubber compound to bite through the snow. The wrc guys run about a 7mm stud when they are betting on snow covered roads, and about a 5mm stud when the roads are nice and polished.

Even on really well polished ice, where the DOT studs have a hope at being faster....you have to be careful, you lean too hard on that loud pedal and those studs are going to come out, one by one. They fall out and you've got a crappy hard compound "snow" tire that ain't gonna do shit on ice.

A well prepped Studless tire.....depending on the conditions. In snow covered roads, something with BIG voids to get through the snow, and a SOFT rubber compound to grip when you get through the snow....works very well. Run an A034 or a knifed/cut Street snow/ice tire. On glare ice roads, a good Ice tire, tractionized until it looks like velcro, and then add some cuts.

Now if you talk about taking a good rally studdable tire, like a Michelin, Pirelli, etc and put in a "DOT LEGAL" height stud....you've got a better chance. These things have nice square blocks without any siping around them. They hold the studs alot better than a "DOT" tire, and have a much more open tread! I'd say if you could keep the studs in the tires, you'd need to play with stud design, and stud height....then this would be a good combination. But for it to be worth anything we'd need the NATIONAL events to allow the tires....and they would be questionably "DOT legal"


In any effect, the comparison and statement that has been made should more accurately be "studless is faster than a DOT Legal studded tire"

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Chris

Chris,
Don't try and confuse John with context. If he ever gets a handle on putting comments or statements into context this forum won't have anywhere near the humour value.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Boys don't ever think that anything I say is 100% serious. And nothing is 100% not serious..


I know about studs al the way back to when I bought my first tire with real studs--chisel tipped carbide--back in 1973

And sat with my best friend who picked up piles of money for his racing season of moto-cross by working for his next door neighbor studding rally tires.

This is, the whole ripped to shreads "tractionized" tire thing is a Eastern Canajian thing.. I cannot just drive pick up the phone and order those anywhere except Oh Canada...with all the cost and trouble and crap connected with that.

I CAN go clicky clackie and have nice studded tires with glued and vulcanized in studs tires arrive 2 miles away in a few days
and which last a long time when used correctly...and which work pretty OK even is part worn state...


But come on it's just a long term joke, and it's been joked about a couple of decades before anybody here now was sitting on a icy stage road..

It's just that for over 20 years I keep hearing and seeing stuff like this from competitors--admittedly on some fawkin obscure forum but still:

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Running S*D this year (and 2010) was just boring, frustrating, hair raising, and all that repeated a hundred times. When the pointy end of the stick can't break a 40mph avg speed, I might as well run a TSD and get the same "excitement" it seems.

(for a lot less than the extorionate entry fee , he could reasonable add.)

Go get angry at that guy.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
john vanlandingham
What do I "dislike" about BMWs? Finns are going into BMWs cause they've used up so many "better" cars. Better meaning simpler, stronger, cheaper cars..
quote]

What cars are these simpler, stronger, cheaper cars? Which models are we talking about?

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Susiraja


What cars are these simpler, stronger, cheaper cars? Which models are we talking about?

According to University study F Cup drivers are mostly responsible for the worldwide shortage of MkI and MkII Escorts, RWD Corolla and Starlets, And Ascona B---although some researchers say the your neighbors to the West may have killed a larger portion of Ascona Bs than Finland did before they began slaughtering every 240 they could find..it seems Finland never quite decided to kill every 240 like your neighbors did.

But specifically 240:an and Sierra.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Here's an interesting site about interchangability between BMW stuff. I bought a 325i for a daily driver last week for $1200 so have started to learn more about them.
http://www.protoworks.com/cgi-bin/C-C_Wiki.pl?E36_BMWs_Are_Like_Legos

The thing that I liked to read was:
E36 325/328 front: 286mm x 22mm vented rotor E36 325/328 rear: 280mm x 10mm solid rotor

No specs yet on calipers but all appear to be single piston but not horribly sized on rotors as stock for fitting under a 15. Convertible and E46 323i models have vented rears for an easy rear upgrade.

Still working on deciphering diff options but all V6 models had 188 mm ring gears and 4.1 and 4.27 or so final drives do appear to be available. Hoping to put something together from junkyard parts but work case final drives on ebay for $150 and LSD units around $200. That's out of my budget for now for a daily driver but the option exists.

I do have to say I find the stock power levels to be pretty decent though I've been driving a 2.2 Subaru for last year so pretty easy to outdo that.

Here's a fun video of Kern, Josh, and I in the Evo (Kern) and BMW (me and Josh) from a rallycross this weekend. I am the cone killer.

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Grant Hughes

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john vanlandingham

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Susiraja


What cars are these simpler, stronger, cheaper cars? Which models are we talking about?

According to University study F Cup drivers are mostly responsible for the worldwide shortage of MkI and MkII Escorts, RWD Corolla and Starlets, And Ascona B---although some researchers say the your neighbors to the West may have killed a larger portion of Ascona Bs than Finland did before they began slaughtering every 240 they could find..it seems Finland never quite decided to kill every 240 like your neighbors did.

But specifically 240:an and Sierra.

There isn't much simple, strong or cheap in those cars. For many of those cars you have to build a new engine, gearbox, brakes, suspension, rear axle. In some cases also cut&weld bigger wheels arches so you can fit 15" and 16" tyres.
Can you imagine a standard mk2 escort or starlet to be competitive with just new suspension and brakes? The escort is 40 years old and the starlet 30. That's why the BMWs are popular. Many people just change the suspension, better brake pads, shorter gear ratio and that's about it.