Apparently I am missing something.

The drivers were all complaining and talking like they were being forced to drive too fast for the conditions. I would think that at the top level of the WRC the drivers and teams would be able to muster enough self control to deal with slippery conditions and worn tires. Do these people think that they need to run 110% all of the time? Even after their rivals crash out?

What the fuck is a "joker" part? Autosport reports: "On being questioned, Mr Mestelan-Pinon explained that the clutch was a 'joker' part introduced as provided for in the regulations and agreed that the part removed from the car during post-event scrutineering did not match that shown on the homologation form."

I'm just a stupid ass mechanic but from my perspective there were some very poor decisions being made this weekend. What do you think?

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Robert.

"You are way too normal to be on Rally Anarchy." Eddie Fiorelli.

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Rallymech
Apparently I am missing something.

The drivers were all complaining and talking like they were being forced to drive too fast for the conditions. I would think that at the top level of the WRC the drivers and teams would be able to muster enough self control to deal with slippery conditions and worn tires. Do these people think that they need to run 110% all of the time? Even after their rivals crash out?

I'll throw my 2 cents in here...

#1: Not "pushing" seems to be a recipe for disaster. It's not that you yourself have stopped paying as much attention, but when not "racing" at 100%, a person's concentration tends to falter. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, keep pushing so you don't screw up (but risk being caught out due to treacherous conditions) or back off and screw up in a lapse of concentration.

#2: Running on incorrect equipment for the conditions sucks. It's like being forced to run gravels on snow, while challenging (especially if everyone else is on the same footing as you), it's frustrating to know you could do "better" by using different equipment that is readily available to you. Very frustrating, no different than having to slow down to "save" suspension pieces on the car. Me DRIVER! ME DRIVE FAST!

As for the non-homologated parts, what a stupid mess up on Citroens part.

Having said all of that, this basically makes the top 3 guys (Loeb, Mikko, Petter) tied for 1st. It'll be a great battle this season (go Petter go)!

1) I imagine it has something to do with the fact that the "also-rans" (ie. the guys that apparently ended up winning) don't really have much to lose by pushing in bad conditions. I'm going to guess that ending up on the podium for one or two events is a lot more interesting to sponsors than finishing 5th or 6th on season points.

b) the (IMO) asinine tire rules don't help either. At least, if they allowed cuts, a cut hard might be a little better looking alternative when compared to a worn-out soft. Or, maybe recognize that this _is_ (supposedly) the highest level of the sport and restricting the teams to 10 "emergency" tires isn't going to make it so affordable that any old millionaire playboy can come dick around. (That is the WRC's target market for drivers these days, right?)

iii) ???

quattro) sounds like Citroen would fit right in at SCCA RallyX Nationals - "we know it's clearly against the rules, but we don't think it provides a performance advantage, so it's ok, right?"

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

(addendum to my #1 above)
The problem with the also-rans not having any disincentive to push, is that the championship contenders still feel compelled to race with them, whether it's to maximize their points haul (especially when a prime contender has already earned 0 pts) or simply because they're competitive guys.

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

Typical French team response. They said it offered no advantage. The clutch assembly was missing the lightening holes, making it heavier, therefore no performance gain. Being a bike guy, I know first hand that more rotating mass is way better in slippy conditions...

Oh, and the turbine wheel normally grows? Give me a break

Look what the french team did at Dakar. Robbie Gordon whooped them in a stage, so they complained that there way NO way Gordon could be faster than them, so they spent 5 hours going over the truck, in the middle of the event no less, and say since his tire deflation system terminates into the manifold after the restrictor, it adds performance. So the air from deflating 4 tires a few pounds, a couple times a stage, gives him some super powers? Lame

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phlat65
Oh, and the turbine wheel normally grows? Give me a break

from http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98551:

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It is noted that the homologation papers state that the dimension C is given as 54.00mm with a tolerance of plus/minus 0.1mm. Mr Mestelan-Pinon stated that the new turbine wheel when measured, was 54.02mm

I don't see how exactly that's a violation. 54.02 sits pretty squarely between 53.90 and 54.10...

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

I think the Ford boys drove way over their heads in an attempt to out do eachother.

I can't imagine Citroen fitted a improper clutch intensionally, maybe a mistake?? Pretty easy to check that stuff and they(FIA) do every time. I also can't imagine there is any measurable benefit to "adding" weight to a clutch cover, it's a tiny amount of material on a small diameter. If it was the flywheel that would be a different story.

I was just happy to see Loeb roll. I'm sure the driving god will go on to dominate the championship as usual, but its enough to give the false sense of competition.

The clutch story is a typical manufacturer doing a running change without changing the part numbers, or properly describing the change in the new packaging. Its normal for the team managers to ask purchasing to get more clutch discs, covers, discs, bells, bobbins, piston seals, this that and the other thing, and big PO goes in to the manufacturer with a required delivery date and when Citroen gets the parts, they go straight to inventory. When they need replacing the mechanics get it off the shelf and slap it on. Its the same part number so its business as usual. But the difference in this case caused an exclusion. Who's at fault, the dumbass mechanics as usual or the manufacturer? Both IMO.

Alcon is going to have to give a lot more free shit for the rest of the year to try and save that deal!

As for more weight being better for performance.... not going to make a difference. Not enought moment of inertia, too little weight and too small of a diameter. Less than 1lb-in^2 I recon.

As for the turbo impeller, true to has thermal expansion but it cant be bigger than the internal diameter of the housing, so whats the problem? Issues with the measuring methods? Then measure a Ford impeller to see if it has the same distortion.


And yes big pussies complaining about difficult conditions... starting to think those punks are becoming worse than nascar drivers.

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Aaron Luptak
I don't see how exactly that's a violation. 54.02 sits pretty squarely between 53.90 and 54.10...

54.02 is what a new one measured. Hirvonen's measured at 54.11mm.
would a tighter gap between the turbine and the housing increase efficiencies? I'd think so but I'm not exactly a fluid dynamics guy.

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison

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Aaron Luptak
I don't see how exactly that's a violation. 54.02 sits pretty squarely between 53.90 and 54.10...

54.02 is what a new one measured. Hirvonen's measured at 54.11mm.
would a tighter gap between the turbine and the housing increase efficiencies? I'd think so but I'm not exactly a fluid dynamics guy.

It should. Minimally, but minimal is minimal.

Not sure if it's still done, but Hitachi was making turbos in the 90s that had a coating on the inside of the compressor housing that the wheel would abrade away in use, for as close as a zero-clearance wheel as possible. At least, I recall reading that about one of the FD RX-7s that we didn't get, maybe it was something from another dimension that got piped in to me by mistake...

Anyway, Rally Portugal sounds like enough of a clusterfuck this year that it might be worth hunting down the video feed and watching it. Something interesting for a change!

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Pete Remner
Cleveland, Ohio

1984 RX-7 (rallycross thing)
1978
Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 09:42PM by Pete.

Sign up over at F1 zone.net. In the Motorsports Video's section, the MotorsTV and ESPN UK shows get posted up within a few hours of airing. Portugal was interesting for sure!

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Pete
Anyway, Rally Portugal sounds like enough of a clusterfuck this year that it might be worth hunting down the video feed and watching it. Something interesting for a change!

the only thing that's a bigger clusterfuck than how the event went (at least thursday/friday and the post-scrutineering thing) is the FIA/WRC tv deal...

The only coverage that I saw available was the MotorsTV stuff - not the ESPN stuff that I've watched the last few years (and for Sweden and Mexico). It definitely does show the event, but was just about the worst event coverage I've seen...

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com

I'd love to see the guys holding a micrometer. Give them a standard and see if they can measure a bar accurately 3 times the same. The violation is the thickness of one sheet of paper.

Unless the person does measurements every single day of their lives, I wouldn't trust some schmuck to get .003 perfectly..
Not on a bar and not on a turbo wheel.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

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john vanlandingham
I'd love to see the guys holding a micrometer. Give them a standard and see if they can measure a bar accurately 3 times the same. The violation is the thickness of one sheet of paper.

Unless the person does measurements every single day of their lives, I wouldn't trust some schmuck to get .003 perfectly..
Not on a bar and not on a turbo wheel.

That or the calibration of the measuring tool.

As for the Rally being a clusterfuck, I dont think so. It was action packed and kept things from being the typical boring Loeb leading from begining to end. It had rain storms which is part of the weather and natural to rally... that made the drivers feel icky with the mud, maybe the organizers should've done a rain delay? The event went through with no dramas from the speccies nor organizational faux pas. But having the drivers getting bish slapped by the weather made it interesting. Good to see privateers winning again. Maybe thats what rally needs, NO factory teams.