i was going to use sagebrush to make beer, then i learned that its toxic. turns out.... smells great though

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First Rally: 2010 First RallyX: 2004 (a bunch)
Driver (0), Co-Driver (7)
Organizer (3), Volunteer (3)
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Last Updated, Apr 9, 2023

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Gravity Fed
i was going to use sagebrush to make beer, then i learned that its toxic. turns out.... smells great though

Animal beer was toxic and people bought it...

Used to love the way my dirt bike smelled after a good blast across the Nevada desert.

Grip tape, also available at any skate shop in mass quantity for cheap.

ya i bought and installed some grip tape yesterday. much easier time to stay on the pedals. though heal toeing is tricker now (foot sticks to the brake pedal) so i might cut off a thin bit on the right side of the brake.

video is uploading, then processing :




that's stage 10 (2nd stage of saturday) same stage that i went off on.

L5- exposure (navi side) into R5 short into L5 (or was it a 4) where i went off.. (oops) the car does smell nice BTW... hehehe

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A1337STI
well that noise? it got much worse on the long drive out to the rally HQ friday... It was my liquid filled A-arm bushing... it cracked and all the liquid came out. my crew chief and an other crew chielf said it shouldn't fail, but may lead to slightly off steering feel, and the noise will be super annoying, but not really affecting things.

We ran all of day 2 at NEFR last year with both cracked all the way through and pissing goo everywhere; replaced them with group N solid bushings.

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/2012 10:25AM by KTurner.

Ah, the bad bushing really didn't seem to affect the handling, but it sure did a number on my confidence in my equipment... I just couldn't mentally nail the "big jump" nearly as hard as i would have otherwise... though big chunks of the stage i was able to mentally block it out

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A1337STI
ya i bought and installed some grip tape yesterday. much easier time to stay on the pedals. though heal toeing is tricker now (foot sticks to the brake pedal) so i might cut off a thin bit on the right side of the brake.

video is uploading, then processing :




that's stage 10 (2nd stage of saturday) same stage that i went off on.

L5- exposure (navi side) into R5 short into L5 (or was it a 4) where i went off.. (oops) the car does smell nice BTW... hehehe

Why are you heeling and toeing a car with a synchro box?

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
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Why wouldn't he? Matching the revs is never a bad thing, the closer matched they are the longer his syncros will last... if they aren't matched quite right the syncros will still help the gear select. I don't see a downside.

-Martin.

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MRWmotorsports
Why wouldn't he? Matching the revs is never a bad thing, the closer matched they are the longer his syncros will last...

Not really, unless you're double clutching (or clutchlesss shifting) as well. Double clutching will bring the input side of the transmission up to the speed of the output, but in a 'single clutch' (clutch in, rev match , select gear , clutch out) you've done nothing to match the speed of the input and output. (correct me if I'm wrong...)

What it DOES do, however, is match the engine and transmission speeds so that it is more sympathetic to the clutch and driveline components. The smoother engagement also unsettles the car less, therefore, and unmatched downshift can also unsettle the car more, which can be valuable as well.

In the end, I can't imagine driving, even daily driving, without rev matching my downshifts.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
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Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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Morison
Not really, unless you're double clutching (or clutchlesss shifting) as well. Double clutching will bring the input side of the transmission up to the speed of the output, but in a 'single clutch' (clutch in, rev match , select gear , clutch out) you've done nothing to match the speed of the input and output. (correct me if I'm wrong...)

You're technically right, but forgetting that by clutching in you're unloading the input shaft, which allows the synchro to bring it up to speed with less shock to its teeth. So, yes, clutching saves the synchros.


Personally, I use the clutch on every shift, up or down. When I heel-and-toe though, I'm concentrating on getting the braking right and the throttle blip is only approximate. And I mostly do it to keep the downshift from destabilizing the car too much.

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Self-righteous douche canoe

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hoche
You're technically right, but forgetting that by clutching in you're unloading the input shaft, which allows the synchro to bring it up to speed with less shock to its teeth. So, yes, clutching saves the synchros.

Actually hadn't forgotten that at all, just saying that 'matching revs' without double clutching doesn't change the speed differential between gears.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

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hoche
Personally, I use the clutch on every shift, up or down. When I heel-and-toe though, I'm concentrating on getting the braking right and the throttle blip is only approximate. And I mostly do it to keep the downshift from destabilizing the car too much.

What I find that is interesting is that destabilizing the car is part of rallying. If you already have a process (downshifting) that upsets the car and you know how to utilize it, wouldn't that just be one less thing to worry about (heel toe-ing)? Especially since as a by-product of not rev-matching, not only are you not wasting the time to "heel toe", but you also need to brake less due to the drag on the drivetrain. One could argue that this puts more wear on the clutch, but I've never saw a driver who has given a damn about the clutch yet...

Rather than focusing on techniques that may (or more than likely, probably not) help you as a driver, why not focus on the actual driving? My 2 cents. I don't heel toe or rev match unless the tranny is unhappy.

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HiTempguy
Rather than focusing on techniques that may (or more than likely, probably not) help you as a driver, why not focus on the actual driving? My 2 cents. I don't heel toe or rev match unless the tranny is unhappy.

They may help you as a driver. However, for early drivers they probably actually slow people down because you are over thinking it. I think all novice drivers should focus more on coming really close to crashing the car, as close as possible even, then worry about finesse technique. How can finesse matter if you're not on the edge in the first place.
All you have to do is pay attention to brake lights and glowing rotors on most mid-pack Open and SP cars to see the result of too much effort at finesse, not enough effort at driving on the limit.

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Grant Hughes

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HiTempguy
What I find that is interesting is that destabilizing the car is part of rallying. If you already have a process (downshifting) that upsets the car and you know how to utilize it, wouldn't that just be one less thing to worry about (heel toe-ing)?

For me, heel and toe is more of a reflex than something I 'worry about.' That said, with my size 12s it has been more of a left side/right side of foot thing in most cars I've driven.
I'd also think you don't always want to destabilize the car when you're downshifting. (There's also the dynamic stability vs. instability discussion... in that I don't think you actually want your car to be unstable... but that's a different discussion.)

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HiTempguy
Especially since as a by-product of not rev-matching, not only are you not wasting the time to "heel toe", but you also need to brake less due to the drag on the drivetrain.
Rather than focusing on techniques that may (or more than likely, probably not) help you as a driver, why not focus on the actual driving? My 2 cents.

I guess it is because I see H&T as a fundamental not as an advanced technique. It's one of those things that becomes second nature that you don't even think about. (Like Hoche said above, I'm talking about an approximation not a precise match) This is something I do daily as I drive around.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2012 07:21PM by Morison.

Quote
HiTempguy
What I find that is interesting is that destabilizing the car is part of rallying. If you already have a process (downshifting) that upsets the car and you know how to utilize it, wouldn't that just be one less thing to worry about (heel toe-ing)? Especially since as a by-product of not rev-matching, not only are you not wasting the time to "heel toe", but you also need to brake less due to the drag on the drivetrain. One could argue that this puts more wear on the clutch, but I've never saw a driver who has given a damn about the clutch yet...

When I destabilize the car, I do it with brakes or steering, and I try to do it with finesse. The snatch of the gearbox is too abrupt, and it just puts a lot of stress on everything in the drive line. And I have to pay for that driveline - and yes, I give a damn about my clutch. Did you know that my P-Stock golf car has 22 rallies on it on the same gearbox and clutch?

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HiTempguy
Rather than focusing on techniques that may (or more than likely, probably not) help you as a driver, why not focus on the actual driving? My 2 cents. I don't heel toe or rev match unless the tranny is unhappy.

I pretty much do it without thinking about it, so focus isn't really a problem. I've probably got a few more rallies and track enduros under my belt than some others though.

Quite frankly, I think it's a matter of personal preference. If you want to do it clutchless, go ahead. I'm used to using the clutch and it doesn't appear to slow me down that much.

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Self-righteous douche canoe