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hoche
Quite frankly, I think it's a matter of personal preference. If you want to do it clutchless, go ahead. I'm used to using the clutch and it doesn't appear to slow me down that much.

Don't confuse what I said above as advocating clutchless downshifting in a synchro box. I'm not. I just admitted to doing it as a bad habit, both up and down, and it WON'T be any faster.
What I am advocating is H&T to match revs while downshifting, using the clutch. (Otherwise, if you didn't need your left foot for the clutch it would be on the brake, negating the need for H&T)

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
I guess it is because I see H&T as a fundamental not as an advanced technique.

Which is interesting, as many drivers at the pointy end have specifically stated (in rallying) its not. Especially if you are LFB'ing (a technique that is IMO 1 billion times more critical and findamental to rallying than H&T, which they sort of fight against each other unless you have three legs...)

I'm not saying H&T is not GOOD to do. I'm saying exactly what Grant said, and I'm saying exactly what JVL is quoted as typing in my signature.

As for the semantics ( ) on upsetting the car, if you're downshifting, you better be setting up for a turn, in which case the car will be upset as this is rallying, not road racing. So I'd make the argument that yes, in order to slide a car around a corner, some form of weight transfer/shifting is required, in which case if I had to downshift anyways, why not use that as a tool, have more focus on the task at hand, and not stab those things that slow people down waaaaaay too much?

Maybe I'm just arguing semantics too?

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hoche


When I destabilize the car, I do it with brakes or steering, and I try to do it with finesse. The snatch of the gearbox is too abrupt, and it just puts a lot of stress on everything in the drive line.

Hey its rally-racing, it's worth a 1/1000 of a second a shift it couldf save 1 or 2 seconds over the whole event!

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And I have to pay for that driveline - and yes, I give a damn about my clutch.

Well whats $2500 for a gearkit and 12 hours R&R time, if you were serious you'd do full thottle shift up and down everytime.
Whadda pussy whining about mere thousands.



Did you know that my P-Stock golf car has 22 rallies on it on the same gearbox and clutch?

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HiTempguy
Rather than focusing on techniques that may (or more than likely, probably not) help you as a driver, why not focus on the actual driving? My 2 cents. I don't heel toe or rev match unless the tranny is unhappy.

The next corner, the next corner.

Oh dude. gearboxes are for making the car go faster and keeping it in the sweet rpm range..
Brakes , the most powerful system in the car, is the absolute key to happiness.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
HiTempguy
Which is interesting, as many drivers at the pointy end have specifically stated (in rallying) its not. Especially if you are LFB'ing (a technique that is IMO 1 billion times more critical and findamental to rallying than H&T, which they sort of fight against each other unless you have three legs...)

H&T and LFB are both tools and while the use of one precludes the use of the other, it doesn't mean that you won't use both during a stage.

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HiTempguy
I'm not saying H&T is not GOOD to do. I'm saying exactly what Grant said, and I'm saying exactly what JVL is quoted as typing in my signature.

The assumption is that H&T takes thought or concentration to execute. That shouldn't be the case. (you don't 'really' think about breathing or turning the steering wheel do you?)

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HiTempguy
So I'd make the argument that yes, in order to slide a car around a corner, some form of weight transfer/shifting is required, in which case if I had to downshift anyways, why not use that as a tool, have more focus on the task at hand, and not stab those things that slow people down waaaaaay too much?

Of course there has to be weight transfer, but you may not want it when it is the right time to downshift, and you probably want better control of it than you'll get with a downshift.

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I'm just arguing semantics too?

Nah, you're just being an Adam.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Adam, there's a lot of variance when it comes to "destabilizing the car". If it's abrupt, you end up boinging off the shocks and there's rebound and then rebound from that and so on - and you're fighting the car, not driving it. And I find that tranny snatch causes too abrupt a destabilization.

Now, I have a FWD car, so the tranny snatch works on my drive and steering wheels - and if they're locked up, I have NO control at all. Even when it's really slippery, I need those wheels planted while I'm doing the majority of my slowing down. The main difference is that when it gets super slippery, my turn-in point comes sooner - and in that case I still need them gripping to start the turn - and throughout the turn they may be sliding in the old direction but I need them pulling hard in the new one.

So I do know a guy who doesn't rally anymore but used to be bloody fast in an old RWD Toyota. He used to use tranny snatch to pivot the car, but if you ask him about it he'll just laugh and say it worked but he went through a lot of transmissions. However, they'd usually last a couple of events and then it was pretty easy to drop out the old one and swap in another. So it IS a valid technique, albeit with repercussions.

The top-level guys often have quite different gearboxes and lots of crew and bigger budgets, so what their priorities are is often a bit different from us regional lubbers.

And Keith: I'm not sure if you were just being unclear, but it's possible to use H&T and LFB in the same turn. I do it all the time. Yeah, you can't do it at the same time, but once the right foot goes into full loud-pedal mode, the left can come over and work the brake. It's a little dance on the pedals.

I used to step on my own toes doing that (and I mean that quite literally), but haven't in several years. Just takes practice, I guess.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

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hoche
And Keith: I'm not sure if you were just being unclear, but it's possible to use H&T and LFB in the same turn.

Completely agree.

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hoche
Yeah, you can't do it at the same time, but once the right foot goes into full loud-pedal mode, the left can come over and work the brake. It's a little dance on the pedals.

Precisely, although you don't have to be in 'full loud-pedal' mode, you can still be moderating the power.

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hoche
Just takes practice, I guess.

Yup. I developed sensitivity in LFB by doing it daily in by daily driver (clearly not to the same effect, but simply to teach brake modulation and control with the left foot.) Sam with H&T.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
Morison
Precisely, although you don't have to be in 'full loud-pedal' mode, you can still be moderating the power.

My turn to be unclear, apparently. I didn't mean that foot was slammed down full, I meant that it's sole (no pun intended) responsibility was the loud pedal.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

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john vanlandingham
Why are you heeling and toeing a car with a synchro box?

Forcive habbit from Raly cross and autocross in subarus perhaps mixed in with some good ole fashion ignorance... ?

In cone racing, in a subaru the darn things don't want to grab first until about 5-10 mph. but I often Want first at 20 mph.. (Aprox 4K rpms) So I Double clutch / heel tow downshift into first. At first everyone in my autox Region said not to and just "focus on driving" Well I figured i should just drive the correct way , and that at first my times would suffer, but eventually i would "get it"

Now i can autox , LFB, and double clutch down shift (with heel + toe action) and set a top 3 time (in the reno region)

So i took that same thinking with me to rally. Drive how i think the "ultimate" driver would. and yes initially my driving will suffer, but over time I'll be driving how i actually want to.

which would be while threshold braking that i could heel / toe double clutch down shift. !!


When Tom converted my car to AWD, he opened up my FWD transmission that had 12 or so rallies on it. all the gears looked perfectly fine, all the synchros looked perfectly fine..

That said, to be fully honest, my braking (ability) sucks... I leave time on the table, i rarely threshold brake. Actually at NNR on saturday i felt like my braking was better, hard braking and easing up as i began steering with maybe one more little dab for rotation and back on the gas.

Maybe the next rally i should focus on threshold braking and let the syncros do more of the work ... ??

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A1337STI
... So I Double clutch / heel tow downshift into first.

I've tried, from time to time, and simply can't make my feet understand double clutching. My brian gets it, but I don't seem to be coordinated enough to manage it.

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A1337STI
which would be while threshold braking that i could heel / toe double clutch down shift. !! ...
Maybe the next rally i should focus on threshold braking and let the syncros do more of the work ... ??

I'd probably leave H&T on the table but drop double clutching. That's where the synchros earn their keep anyway.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

To continue this threadjack, in my Prod Golf days I made a nice wide brake pedal so I could seamlessly swap btwn left or right foot braking -- ie btwn LFB while on the throttle, and H&T downshifts. Try it. I had done clutchless downshifts while LFB'ing, but with this setup found it rarely necessary.

To bring things back full circle, I have a wide brake pedal, and I just put new grip tape on it directly because of Alex's misadventure at NNR.

---

Self-righteous douche canoe

What is this "Tranny Snatch" you speak of, sounds dirty and possibly illegal?

Drifters call that "shift lock" I think, oh and it does work.

http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg602/grumblepants/e9430f66-1.jpg


a little LFB might have prevented this...

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alkun
http://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg602/grumblepants/e9430f66-1.jpg


a little LFB might have prevented this...

Yeah but for you does LFB stand for Large Fucking Boot, or Little Fucking Brain?

Hey did Pat decide to drop out and let somebody else have some fun occasionally?

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

I did the whole animated, down on my knees pleading in front of him and his pops Charlie.