Pikes Peak Evo Crash

Thank you for posting pictures like these. IMHO it makes the community safer and allows us opportunity to learn what has worked and has not.

Cheers

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

I wonder if there are any pictures of the driver's helmet.
(The builder is saying the cage was built to carry a second person)

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Point us in the direction Keith. Is this on the Evo build thread???

Found it. It is in the builders thread...

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 12:08AM by zerodegreec.

Door bars look just about right to come over the seat and pin someone in, hard to tell from pics.

Seats should never be mounted directly to floor, but if someone does they might want to use a really big washer or four...

I don't understand the lack of A pillar supports in this day and age.

In the end all the bragging, building, tuning, bragging, thread posting, engineering, bragging and ultra light weight construction were for naught as the car didn't finish the course. So the somewhat hazardous construction in the name of speed didn't matter. Gotta be a lesson here.

I'm very happy to see so many rally people understanding why safety rules are made, even tho many are unpopular at first.

Sure like to see NRS change their cage rules....

Seats were mounted to

Quote

the eighth-inch steel plate welded to the car's floor

Autoblog article

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Nick Taylor.
Knobhead.
Los Angeles, CA.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 12:36AM by nick the brit.

Holy shit man, seat bolted to floor. Awesome.

but but but...the steel plate!

Yeah, I don't like that at all. So easy to tear out of the rest of the thin floorpan.

At the end of the day the guys are alive and OK, so the cage did it's job.
Definitely a learning experience though, and hopefully the builder realizes how lucky he got and HE learns from it.

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Nick Taylor.
Knobhead.
Los Angeles, CA.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 12:42AM by nick the brit.

Quote
zerodegreec
Thank you for posting pictures like these. IMHO it makes the community safer and allows us opportunity to learn what has worked and has not.

Cheers

Yeah, even though this is clearly something that turned out lucky, if ther's going to be any lasting good to come out of it, it has to be in having graphic hi quality photos of what didn't work...I often have to repeat to some of the stupider, completely superficial types that good, clear accurate criticism, even high sarcastic criticism is far better than back slapping "you're just marvelous' good buddy tripe..

Now the second things I voluntarily I ever read--the first were US Navy Flight Manuals for the different aircraft my father flew, they were around from before I was born and it was so cool to be able to read "throttles" "artificial horizon" and "mixture controls"--the second things was a in-house US Navy magazine called "Approach" still published by the US Navy Safety Center: http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafecen/Documents/media/approach/2012/App_Jul-Aug2012.pdf

In it were detailed post crash analysis and accident investigations. As my Dad's said "It costs a couple of million bucks to take a guy off the farm and make his a navy pilot, we have to know not just the 'what' that happened, but the more important question, the "why' and the "how". I'd seen photos of the results of crashing aircraft and of men being burned to a crisp--and I was burned up pretty badly myself soon enough and was seriously fucked up for a year--which is a lot longer time when you're a 10 y.o.

Then I spent 16-18 years crashing hundreds and hundred and hundred of times, enough to begin to accumulate enough first hand, and knee and head experience in fucking up seriously to the point of serious injuries...so that by time I was 30, 10% of my life had been in wheelchairs or on crutches...

So when I started doing rally for fun, and regarding the lax "youse got a pulse? OK here's a licence, that'll be $50, please", and considering what piles of shit all cars are, and how un-practiced most participants were, fro some reason I thought that there would be serious open, published analysis of serious accidents.

Of course the exact opposite was and is the case, always the same "I can't say because...." litigation, it's too horrible, whatever.

Valuable, costly experienced hidden, cloaked, and lost. And the ability to possibly learn lessons in advance on build techniques, and analysis methods, and to see exactly how the human decisions were arrived at that led to the accident, lost.

There's many things screwy about the rally scene, but this is one of the screwiest.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
nick the brit
...Definitely a learning experience though, and hopefully the builder realizes how lucky he got and HE learns from it.

If he learned something he sure is hiding it well. He's still on the EVO forum stating his cage is as good as a rally cage and doesn't plan on changing anything for future cars.

The motorsports community is a small one. We're both in Dallas. I'll see him in person soon and let him know what a moron he is face to face.

It's one thing to field a car like that. One that meets the rules. It's a whole other level to have it destroyed and not improve the design for the next one.

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Jason McDaniel

Quote
john vanlandingham
In it were detailed post crash analysis and accident investigations. As my Dad's said "It costs a couple of million bucks to take a guy off the farm and make his a navy pilot, we have to know not just the 'what' that happened, but the more important question, the "why' and the "how".

considering what piles of shit all cars are, and how un-practiced most participants were, fro some reason I thought that there would be serious open, published analysis of serious accidents.

Of course the exact opposite was and is the case, always the same "I can't say because...." litigation, it's too horrible, whatever.

Sounds a lot like 'Accidents in North American Mountaineering' - http://www.americanalpineclub.org/p/anam

Nice to know that I'm not alone in thinking something like that could be a huge asset to motorsports folks in general (at least those of us who see a minimum cage spec and don't think "if that's what the rules require, then it must be safe - I'm sure <insert sanctioning body> only has my best interests at heart." )

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KF7RWG
http://www.utahrallygroup.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 08:19AM by Aaron Luptak.

Agreed 100%, John.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Yeah, even though this is clearly something that turned out lucky, if ther's going to be any lasting good to come out of it, it has to be in having graphic hi quality photos of what didn't work...I often have to repeat to some of the stupider, completely superficial types that good, clear accurate criticism, even high sarcastic criticism is far better than back slapping "you're just marvelous' good buddy tripe..

Now the second things I voluntarily I ever read--the first were US Navy Flight Manuals for the different aircraft my father flew, they were around from before I was born and it was so cool to be able to read "throttles" "artificial horizon" and "mixture controls"--the second things was a in-house US Navy magazine called "Approach" still published by the US Navy Safety Center: http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafecen/Documents/media/approach/2012/App_Jul-Aug2012.pdf

In it were detailed post crash analysis and accident investigations. As my Dad's said "It costs a couple of million bucks to take a guy off the farm and make his a navy pilot, we have to know not just the 'what' that happened, but the more important question, the "why' and the "how". I'd seen photos of the results of crashing aircraft and of men being burned to a crisp--and I was burned up pretty badly myself soon enough and was seriously fucked up for a year--which is a lot longer time when you're a 10 y.o.

Then I spent 16-18 years crashing hundreds and hundred and hundred of times, enough to begin to accumulate enough first hand, and knee and head experience in fucking up seriously to the point of serious injuries...so that by time I was 30, 10% of my life had been in wheelchairs or on crutches...

So when I started doing rally for fun, and regarding the lax "youse got a pulse? OK here's a licence, that'll be $50, please", and considering what piles of shit all cars are, and how un-practiced most participants were, fro some reason I thought that there would be serious open, published analysis of serious accidents.

Of course the exact opposite was and is the case, always the same "I can't say because...." litigation, it's too horrible, whatever.

Valuable, costly experienced hidden, cloaked, and lost. And the ability to possibly learn lessons in advance on build techniques, and analysis methods, and to see exactly how the human decisions were arrived at that led to the accident, lost.

There's many things screwy about the rally scene, but this is one of the screwiest.

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-Brian

Quote
nick the brit
Seats were mounted to

Quote

the eighth-inch steel plate welded to the car's floor

Autoblog article

1. How the hell does that get on Autoblog

2. Why would the builder even consider posting those comments? (assuming that he ok'ed them)

I mean the more and more I see from these photos is that the driver/co-driver were definately graced by nothing more than just dumb luck. Clearly the co-driver forsure should have gotten right out of the car, and bought 14 lotto tickets.

I would honestly think the builder would be SOO much better off to just come out and say "we've gone over the damage and done our analysis, and we've noted a few key areas where we can make changes and improvements, on future builds for both ourselves and customers". Just admit that this was a learning experience, because it IS for everyone.

For this guy, as an engineer, to look at the wreck and NOT take note of the damage, and figure out some areas of failure and places that things should and could be improved....that right there is negligence.

The job as an engineer isn't to just come up with a design, and think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. IMHO the most important part of the job is picking up on failures, picking up on areas of improvment, and sometimes going back to the drawing board to make those changes. The impression i get from his comments is he's instead taking failures, and putting them in the "win" column and chalking them up to why the occupants survived.

I hope that the builder is just putting up a "front" online, to not tarnish his reputation but actually taking note of things and will apply them on future builds etc. If he's just sitting back and pumping his chest thinking that he's god, then someone will seriously get hurt.

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Chris

I just keep comparing the cage damage from this to Latvala's huge off in Portugal '09; that car was rebuilt.

http://www.rallysportlive.com/articles/rsl/2010/jari-matti-latvala-rally-portugal-big-crash-down-the-hill.php

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-KTurner
Stomp down on the exhilarator and hold on to the wheel.

While I am not a fan of the design, and think they were both incredibly lucky to walk away, why is this cage NOT a success? They both lived... it did it's job. In another crash, would it have performed as well? Probably not. But it DID work, so I would call it a success, even if it's not a very good success.

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Quote
KTurner
I just keep comparing the cage damage from this to Latvala's huge off in Portugal '09; that car was rebuilt.

http://www.rallysportlive.com/articles/rsl/2010/jari-matti-latvala-rally-portugal-big-crash-down-the-hill.php

Yeah, very similar. Someone should post that on the EVO forums for him.....



Nevermind i see DaveK did. I can't believe how dumb some of those people are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 09:47AM by czwalga.