Pikes Peak Evo Crash

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Dazed_Driver
While I am not a fan of the design, and think they were both incredibly lucky to walk away, why is this cage NOT a success? They both lived... it did it's job. In another crash, would it have performed as well? Probably not. But it DID work, so I would call it a success, even if it's not a very good success.

It failed because the passenger compartment failed to prevent deformation.

It failed because one of the occupants seats folded back and broke off its "mount".

It failed because it shed its body panels allowing objects outside the car to intrude into the passenger compartment.

It failed because BOTH occupants were not provided the same protection.

Using the fact these two survived as a gauge of success or failure is absurd. Jari and Mika's crash in Portugal is a perfect example of a successful safety SYSTEM. "Nascar bars" are designed to keep another car from ending up on the occupants lap. The door bars in a FIA cage prevent the car from folding up like a taco from side, front and bottom impacts. Not much side protection but that's a different topic, the Nascar bars provide superior protection to side impacts than the X bars we have in FIA cages. Ideal would be both types. The nascar bar would prevent the side from folding in (when you hit a tree) and the X keeps the bottom of the cage turning into a trapizoid . The FIA cages are intended to keep the area around the occupants from collapsing in. This ass hats cage FAILED to do this.

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 10:27AM by zerodegreec.

I would love to see analysis of accidents being published.

While the pictures are interesting, and scary if you think about it just a little bit, what is happening with this accident is the exact thing that I think sanctioning bodies are afraid of.

The wide distribution of the pictures, without proper analysis, has only led to armchair experts touting the strength and quality of a cage that moved and bent a lot, and deformed to the point were one of the occupants was exposed to much more risk than the other.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/48687840/ns/today-today_news/t/race-car-co-driver-plunge-cliff-washing-machine-pain/#.UC0LNBrNkpp

At 3:15 of that MSNBC vid it shows the incar while they are racing, not crashing.
There seems to be an AWFUL lot of flex in that seat.
Is that normal?

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Nick Taylor.
Knobhead.
Los Angeles, CA.

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Morison
I would love to see analysis of accidents being published.

The wide distribution of the pictures, without proper analysis, has only led to armchair experts touting the strength and quality of a cage that moved and bent a lot, and deformed to the point were one of the occupants was exposed to much more risk than the other.

And without previous documented analysis, we have no basis for judgement on this single incident. A lot of people think "They survived, therefore it was a good cage dsesign." But if 50 other similar crashes with similar cages resulted in serious injuries or fatalities, the story would be "These guys just got lucky."

People who have the experience with cage design and motorsport crashes are coming to the latter conclusion. But it seems the general public and the media are just looking at this one crash by itself.

Tim.

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nick the brit
At 3:15 of that MSNBC vid it shows the incar while they are racing, not crashing.
There seems to be an AWFUL lot of flex in that seat.
Is that normal?

Pretty normal in our seats. The bazillion dollar NASCAR seats don't flex much. You have to tie a seat back to the cage to really stabilize them.

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heymagic
I'm very happy to see so many rally people understanding why safety rules are made, even tho many are unpopular at first.

Sure like to see NRS change their cage rules....

Huh? That's not a NRS cage. Is someone saying it's an NRS cage? I thought the builder has been saying that it's NOT a rally cage.

The NRS spec for cages has, as "Required Element 6", the additional A pillar support bar, and as "Required Element 5", the sill bar, of which I see neither in those pictures.

*confused*

Anders

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Grassroots rally. It's what I think about.

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heymagic
Pretty normal in our seats. The bazillion dollar NASCAR seats don't flex much. You have to tie a seat back to the cage to really stabilize them.

That's more movement than I've seen in most in-car from Canada but also more loading because it is on tarmac. From the way the driver's seat is moving I'm going to guess (just a guess) that it was on sliders.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Glad to know we have engineers who cant read and interpret correctly how to wrap a belt. I barley got a diploma and i think i nailed it all four tries. His co driver is lucky to be alive, though one could argue a bad note got them to the point of testing that cage.

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zerodegreec
Well I have to agree that the cage is not acceptable especially for a 2 seater. One thing that I have taken from these photos is a better understanding of what to look for in a "safe ride" as a co-driver.

The builder and or the person that bolted the Navi seat into the car (to allow a second person to be in the car) should be charged.

AFTER THE FACT, yes i also have 20/20 hindsight and would say that roll cage isn't safe for a 2 seater. But was there ever, EVER any proof that the Driver or navigator requested that the roll cage be made differently?
Did someone put a gun to their heads and force them into the car?
Were they lied to about the cage construction, and denied a chance to inspect the cage?

NO. the cage builder built a cage to the rules of the event.

A roll cage is not a suit of invincibility!! Its a safety device, its Exactly like a seat belt, it's meant to Reduce risk, not eliminate it. here's a study of 122 people who died while wearing a seat belt AND having air bags deployed : http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pubs/811102.pdf

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zerodegreec
Thank you for posting pictures like these. IMHO it makes the community safer and allows us opportunity to learn what has worked and has not.

Cheers

Yes it does, it really does, and they got posted even with people saying the builder should be charged with criminal neglect.

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john vanlandingham
So when I started doing rally for fun, and regarding the lax "youse got a pulse? OK here's a licence, that'll be $50, please", and considering what piles of shit all cars are, and how un-practiced most participants were, fro some reason I thought that there would be serious open, published analysis of serious accidents.

Of course the exact opposite was and is the case, always the same "I can't say because...." litigation, it's too horrible, whatever.

Valuable, costly experienced hidden, cloaked, and lost. And the ability to possibly learn lessons in advance on build techniques, and analysis methods, and to see exactly how the human decisions were arrived at that led to the accident, lost.

There's many things screwy about the rally scene, but this is one of the screwiest.

I completly agree with you... but when RACERS themselves are saying cage builders should be Charged criminally for a roll cage that complies with the rule set its built for . I'd hide my pictures too ! or else besides being Sued, i could end up in jail or prison ...

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heymagic

The cage did deform, front twisted to the drivers side, rear to the passengers side. Cage did not break, welds held. Builder did his job. Most importantly the occupants are ok so believe it or not the cage did its job and was adequate.

Cages are not built to never deform. No way can you build a structure in a car with occupants that won't give. Even at relatively slow impacts a decent hit can total a car, such as Sean's Merkur. FIA cages, great seats, good helmets, HNRs...all a clculated risk not a guarantee. Drive wisely.

Yes Exactly ... the welds held and the cage was built to their ruleset.
Cage builder (the moron engineer) did his job Adaquetly .. no reason to fire the guy ... also no reason to give him a bonus, or a raise come review time.

A roll cage is a Risk reduction device.

Honestly does a single person on this forum believe both occupants would have surved the exact same roll in that same car with out a roll cage??

Anyone, come on raise your hand?

....

Okay if you didn't raise you hand, than STFU about needing to Charge the cage builder with Criminal negligence.

I certainly agree that cage builder foolishly and arrogantly brushed aside advice from people who have built cars that run in similar situations (rally / hill climbs) . 100%

I also agree the guy is really Dumb / ignorant / arrogant for not mentioning he's looking for improvement, or analyzing the crashed car for things that could have been done better.

But this isn't as black and white as some are making it out to be. its actually a bit of a gray area
The completely legal cage and car construction easily could have been made better, since the cage builder was being given advice while making the car...

But also the cage builder didn't come up with the design on his own, he looked at the rule book. if you want to TRY to throw the Legal negligence Charge around, throw it at the PPIHC rule book writers ...

But why through it around at all, at an event filled with willing participants who "signed up for this shit" ??

honestly I hate this grand deferal of responsiblty from where it should be...

do you know what air plane pilots do before they fly? they inspect the damn plane, that's what.
same should be done by Drivers of their cars before they race. if you don't inspect the car you're about to race, you are a moron, but that's Your choice. (and I've done that same thing too, picked up my car from my crew chief and i didn't look at a damn thing, my choice , and yes that makes me a moron sometimes too!)

...
climbing off my soap box a little bit

Also I have a hybrid Cage that has both nascar door bars, and an X or at least i think i do. my cage was built in 08, using the RA (fia?) specs and we opted for door bars , one of them being a sill bar. then in 09 the head knocker and extra A piller support rule came out and i had those bars added to my cage. So i've got a sill bar, a door bar , An extra A piller support, and the head knocker. And i'm always "all ears" for ways to make my cage better



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/16/2012 05:31PM by A1337STI.

Fact is that if this guy is actually an engineer he CAN and SHOULD be held to the standards of his profession. He is trained and legally bound by LAWS for his actions regarding someone elses life. Regardless if someone signs the piece of paper at the event, he put his trust in the ability of the "engineer". Fact of the matter is that un-trained people (not just me) are saying that just at a quick glance the cage was not designed to protect 2 occupants. Thus he is negligent in his duty as an engineer by putting his name to the cage design.

I dont live in your legal crazy country where everyone sues for every little thing. I live up in the great white north. BUT you are responsable for your actions especially as a professional engineer.

I dont give two fucks about the cage being built to the rules of the event. Its un-acceptible for a professioal engineer to allow a design unfit for 2 occupants to be sent out the door. I say nail this asshole to the wall. If a building or bridge collapses and hurts even a house cat, its front page news and the engineer will loose his license and or be flipping burgers for the rest of his life. If this guy is actually an engineer he diserves legal action. BUT if this guy is actually not an engineer or an engineer of say bio chemistry, well dont say that your an engineer in regards this application.

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

I think it could have been survivable in a stock Evo.
I think it would have been a zero injury roll in a car with a better cage, better seat mounts, better seats, and non-gutted doors and stock roof.
But I'm not an engineer. I'm just an arrogant know it all.

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Grant Hughes

As the one who pointed out the things he could do to improve the cage 6 months ago and who was ignored, I still don't feel this falls to the level of a lawsuit. The kid driving the car saw my comments as well and decided that the cage was good enough for him. I'm not exactly sure when they decided to run with a navvie...I don't think that was the initial plan.

Yes the cage could've been better. What I wish to see is all the interwebz fanbois who are pleading for this guy to build them a cage to know that good advice was ignored and that it *almost* cost someone their life. I'd also like the guy come out and say "yep, we should've done a better job and not been so obsessed with saving 10 lbs." FWIW, my rally prepped car with a bunch of carbon stuff (hood, front fenders, front doors, rear carbon quarter door thingies) on it still weighed 50 lbs MORE than that car which only had a CF hood. Must've been some serious weight cut out of somewhere since my car has a T45 Custom Cages kit.

I think of more concern is that the car was making runs all week with known powersteering line failures (unsure if fixed/resolved for race day) and with also a known turbo oiling issue. Those two things alone could drop fluids on the track (or oil up that car's tires) which could send competitors flying off the road and I think that's a raw deal.

There have been other cars released up the hill in prior years without a snowballs chance in hell of surviving the 12 miles, only to explode oil/coolant all over the road, requiring cleanup delays ranging from 30 minutes on up. That is the height of selfishness when you consider how much time and effort competitors put into having just one shot at the road each year (and the whole rains every day at 3pm).

And before someone calls me out for continuing up the road last year with a flat tire - I had one eye glued to the rear view so that if someone did catch us, I'd have parked it. Little did I know that Verdier hard parked his car in the same corner causing a red flag on the mountain below.

Dave

Hey Alex, I agree whacher wrote, I think the charge should be criminal congentital stupidity but I don't see in the RCW where its illegal to be incredibly stupid.
I agree that PPIHC rule book and probably the organization is preety stupid, but as you say, people are legally entitled to be stupid. Hell I think its required by law in some jurisdictions I can think of.

I think what those outraged are outraged by is how bullshit the guy was and evidently still is and that makes most people with limited experience with true idiots mad, or guys like me with lots of experience with both personal stupidity and studity of others uh not mad but flummoxed...

We have excellent examples of the same sort of gross monstrous stupidity right here where there's some little snot who was told "You're building a car which will be more powerful, with more gearing and power characteristics and brakes and handling totally different than anything you've driven before, all the systems untested. So when the thing runs, go drive it around for a couple of months, shake it down, figure out how it hits and how the brakes work, and drive it on gravel for 300-500 miles sice you've never really driven on gravel, and THEN think about enteringa nice low key event"

And it is completely ignored.

It's a Freeâ„¢ country, and there is no cure for stew-pidity.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
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One of the many reasons I've yet to take my Talon out on the stages is that even though it is logbooked, it currently doesn't have A-Pillar supports.

It's pretty obvious that another hit on the A-Pillar of the passenger side would have collapsed it completely.