Pikes Peak Evo Crash

Wait, so now I'm Peter Pan?

SWEEEEEET


To Neverland!

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KevinD
i'm the first to admit it was the grace of god that saved them. but i also know that if it werent for the cage, seats, helmet, hans, belts, they would be dead. i KNOW how far they fell, and i know there isn't a cage on the planet that is built for that type of fall (the rally nut swinger i.e. robevoRS, can think their cages are built for a 100 ft fall and can be rolled back over and finish the race, but i promise, if they stood there and looked off the edge they wouldnt dare drive off it in their car). I never said i wouldn't change things about the cage i built. i've learned from what i built, and how to do it better, which i will be doing in PP V2. does it mean i'm building a full rally spec cage? no, cause honestly i don't feel all those tubes are soundly designed. Rob doesn't design cages and isn't an engineer doing this. hes just copying what rally teams do and calling it the greatest thing since sliced bread. if a rally engineer told him to buy a honda fit because its the best rally car on the planet, he would be here telling people to buy a honda fit. robert kubica would agree that rally cages arent the impenetrable fortress rob thinks he has. and watching all of robs videos hes posted, they fair no better in compression of the roof then ours did. they DO prevent penetration better then mine does, but ultimately the load bearing tubes, i had most of them, and will be adding 2 more for sure, and changing locations of a couple others to increase strength. i will ONLY be using window nets (i had one on the driver side, but we went with windows instead for better visibility for the driver). and last, i will be looking at other forms of racing for better lateral support as that is what deflected the most on mine. additional gusseting in certain areas to keep the B pillar from intruding is a requirement for me now too.

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EVOlutionary
- if a car, leading up to the race, has had two failed power steering lines and leaking oil lines, some team managers and/or drivers would have pulled the car from the race due to safety concerns. That would be a very tough decision.

this was something that was my fault. i had converted the lines to standard nylon braided AN hoses to work with the larger power steering cooler i added. however, the high side line i should have left alone. the AN hoses rubbed on the motor mount on the side and the rear and after our 4 track days, dyno sessions, autocross, etc, it burst sitting in the pits when going to steering lock. we realized it was a problem, temporarily fixed it by cutting the line shorter, and friday we went and got a true hydraulic hose rated for 3200psi which held up fine from then on out.

the leaking oil line we were messing with all week too. when you think its fixed, its aparently not. it wasn't a problem until we got there for some reason, but thats how it is with racing. every single competitive team there was working out issues with the cars. not a single one of them was able to do all the practices and the race without someone messing with something. DaveK had a leaking radiator, christy carlson broke an axle, brianne popped an IC pipe off, and had several clutch/hydraulic issues. the RS200 cars all had tranny problems, the love fab car went off twice, the audi for pobst had engine problems they werent able to fix for the race in time.

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zerodegreec
This is just a quick Google search. This is true across Canada and from what I know I believe its world wide.
Professional Engineer

So like I said a few times before, If this guy is actaully an Engineer he is 100% open to legal action and loose his licence.

As someone who deals with p. engs on a daily basis...

First thing to consider is that in the US, you are allowed to call yourself an "engineer" after a 3 year associates degree (a glorified degree which is no better than what we call a 2 year technology diploma here in Canada). In fact, anyone can call themselves an engineer in the US afaik (hence draftsmen calling themselves engineers). In Canada, it is a very serious offense to call yourself an engineer if you have not done the 4 year degree program PLUS obtained professional engineering status. Yes, someone can have that ring on their finger, and they are still not considered an engineer, by LAW they can only call themselves an Engineer in Training (EIT). So add another 4+ years of experience onto that when they apply for their p.eng.

Second of all, I actually absolutely agree with what Bryan is saying. No mechanical engineer would brag about that disaster of a cage. Engineers are NOT just bound to their stamping/signing off of designs, but also a CODE of ethics. I'd go so far as to say in Canada, that cage is a violation of that code of ethics. I wouldn't go so far as to say sue the guy, but as an engineer following said code of ethics, he should have never 1) requested the cage to be built that way and 2) followed through with it. At the very least, he should have recognized that it was not designed for dual occupancy and changed the design accordingly. If he does any sort of "real" engineering work, makes you wonder if he cuts corners elsewhere eh? By violating the engineering code of ethics, in Canada, you can and will be punished. That would be up to a body like APEGGA to decide. Again, the US is quite different from Canada in regards to the way engineers are designated...

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heymagic
No engineer can forsee what may happen to his work. Who the fuck would ever think a jet airliner would be flown into the side of a building?? Who would guess a bizarre micro cell would drop into a Sugarland concert and kill people? Who would guess that certain SooperBitchin struts would have PlayDoh ears??

This is the JOB of an actual engineer. That is why all products are developed with HUGE safety factors built in. It's why in a hazardous location that so much as HINTS at there being a minut amount of explosive gas, a system I build must be class1/div2 rated, end of discussion, even if it is absurd because I am measuring freaking pentane that will never see greater levels than Xppm. That cage could have been done up in solidworks in 5 seconds and theoretically had the crap tested out of it. Shit, even I can do that as a lowly technologist. It ain't rocket surgery.

The cage in question, was not built/designed with sound engineering principles for its intended use (in my NON-ENGINEERING opinion). Jari's cage in the 2009 crash was. THAT is the difference between negligence and non-negligence. Yes, a cage WILL AND SHOULD deform (in certain situations). But at most costs, it should not deform in such a way to harm the occupants, would you not agree? As everyone has said, this survival was luck. Jari's was not. Again, the difference between negligent and non-negligent design (IMO).

Edit-

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FunctionAuto
Wait, we're the seats opted directly to the floor?

For anyone that read my Tal[hoon] build thread, I did this. It is an accepted FIA seat mounting option. I went above and beyond (much larger sheets, thicker, and made sure that the upper and lower pieces sandwiching the unibody were different sizes so as to not create a stress-point with any tearing force situated directly on one specific point of the sheetmetal). Jeff weighs 250+ pounds and they did their job adequately as the car tumbled upside-down off the road. I would not have went with that option though if we had any other choice. This Evo accident further reinforces my opinion that while I do like the Talon as a rally car, it isn't very safe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2012 04:44AM by HiTempguy.

I wonder if the cage builder was going off and he had to pick a FIA cage or his own, what would he pick.

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czwalga
I wonder if the cage builder was going off and he had to pick a FIA cage or his own, what would he pick.

Most likely his own to puff his chest.


But I did notice the angle the car was rolling and bouncing was more like a car rolling on flat ground. Think of a car landing on the big ass jumps like X-games, Pastrana New Years, Ken Blocks's 171 foot jump. You can have a car "fall" from great heights as long as you're glancing your landing.

But back to Ken's 171 foot jump, he overshot the landing and came very close to landing on flat ground. Similar was his DC Labs snow jump, which he ended up missing the landing entirely and breaking some vertebre in the process.

But in the end, YES if the cage wasn't there both these guys would likely be dead. However, the cage did have many elements that should have been included and were ignored at the suggestion of others.

I sure as fuck am going to add main hoop supports on my next car. I didn't put them in this time because I didn't have room and my head would have been resting on them in the car. But this time around I'm going to do what I can to make them work.

But one final note, the fuck these guys going on Day/Night talk shows to talk about their crash? I don't see the FY racing guys going on Letterman for their STPR crash which Adam was sure as shit lucky to have survived that one as well.

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BillyElliot

But one final note, the fuck these guys going on Day/Night talk shows to talk about their crash? I don't see the FY racing guys going on Letterman for their STPR crash which Adam was sure as shit lucky to have survived that one as well.

Because no one had video of them crashing.

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BillyElliot
But one final note, the fuck these guys going on Day/Night talk shows to talk about their crash? I don't see the FY racing guys going on Letterman for their STPR crash which Adam was sure as shit lucky to have survived that one as well.

Pikes Peak is also internationally famous. I'd hazard that while RA is followed outside North America, probably not "news" worthy in the medias eye.

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BillyElliot
But one final note, the fuck these guys going on Day/Night talk shows to talk about their crash? I don't see the FY racing guys going on Letterman for their STPR crash which Adam was sure as shit lucky to have survived that one as well.

Nor is Travis Tollet who wrecked on a quad a few years ago and has been in a wheelchair ever since and became the first quadriplegic driver to race the mountain this year in a purpose built UTV.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/TravisTollett/Victor%20Crash/Travis5.jpg

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Grant Hughes

A friend of mine received a call today. The caller accused me of spreading lies. The two lies I've been accused of spreading are that the cage failed and that Yuri's upper torso and head were outside the cage during the flip.

Well, the "cage failed" is a matter of opinion because some people will say that the safety equipment on any crash you are still breathing after was successful. I consider safety equipment a system. The entire system can be successful even if one component fails. In the case of Foley's car, I feel the cage failed, the belts failed (because the seat moved), the seat and mount failed and Yuri's helmet saved the day. Only because he was lucky.

The second statement is a fact. I've attached eight screen grabs from the heavily watched video and three cropped photos from the "My Life at Speed" Facebook album. They show both driver's and passenger's arms outside the cage during two different flips in the last three photos and the first eight show Yuri's helmeted head, shoulder and arm outside the cage.

I've also been accused of photo manipulation. Don't believe me? Capture the frames yourself from the video.

My purpose on posting these is not to defame Evolution Dynamics. It's to get competitors to reconsider building cars to the minimum spec. And not just a Pikes Peak, but for time trials, road racing, and other hillclimbs. Please look at any car you get in with a critical eye. Learn what a GOOD cage is and what makes it good.

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Jason McDaniel

Well that explains the broken helmet. Scary.

VERY lucky the codriver didn't get "Simoncelli'ed"


What is up with all the doors and roof coming off? All welds removed for lightness?


Jason, I'm all for you being outspoken on this issue. That car was far more dangerous than it should have been, and those guys are acting like they were heros when they were being idiots. Unfortunate that speaking the truth opens you up to a shitstorm, but as someone said, in the long run reality always wins.

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alkun


What is up with all the doors and roof coming off? All welds removed for lightness?

LMFAO

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Welcome to the cult of JVL drink the koolaid or be banned.

Good god. Thank you for the screencaps; I wanted to do that because I wanted to confirm some of what I thought I was seeing. Fucking scary.

Those guys were one bad landing from becoming one of those Saudi drifting accident roll overs where you see random limbs in the middle of the road.

Fuck... I think i'm going to look into installing window nets on my car now. I just think in a roll and my windows smash out (not lexan) and an arm sticking out of the car.

The way I see just about any rally driver/co-driver in the WRC when they crash... they tuck their arms to their chest and likely grab the belts. But still, in crashes like that you don't have time to think and the forces can rip your hands away from your chest. It reminds me of Pastrana's roll at Rally Colorado where his hand was outside the window for several rolls.

I also see co-drivers take the notes and put them over their face, which I get a giggle out of that.

Try arm restraints instead of window nets. They don't block your view should you find yourself trying to drive out the side windows. At first they feel a little restrictive, but after a few uses, you don't even notice them.

Dave