http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv198/aaa-111/PikesPeak/Pikes_Peak_2012/foley/EVOFRONT.jpg

Wow.

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First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Hey Jason those are great photos.. they show very well just how utterly lacking in very very basic understanding the "i'm an injur-near---so i noez
about cages' guy is. His blabbering about the oi line leak is appalling.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
Morison
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv198/aaa-111/PikesPeak/Pikes_Peak_2012/foley/EVOFRONT.jpg

Wow.

And double wow.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Goddamn. Speaking as an actual injurneer, that pretty much backs up my thinking to use the FIA rally style cages as a basis in anything future that I build; I mean goddamn, how can anyone look at the way that deformed and conclude the cage was done right for its application?

That cage is a current NRS design, except for the A pillar supports. Anders believes it is adequate...I don't and refuse to log book such a cage.

But...it does have a diagonal on the passenger side, it terminates in the backstays.

The cage did deform, front twisted to the drivers side, rear to the passengers side. Cage did not break, welds held. Builder did his job. Most importantly the occupants are ok so believe it or not the cage did its job and was adequate.

Cages are not built to never deform. No way can you build a structure in a car with occupants that won't give. Even at relatively slow impacts a decent hit can total a car, such as Sean's Merkur. FIA cages, great seats, good helmets, HNRs...all a clculated risk not a guarantee. Drive wisely.

I am assuming an "x" in the main hoop would have made quite a difference as far as the co- driver was concerned. Those door bars look terrible because as mentioned you aren't racing at the same time as other cars, but even to that extent with the "s" bend in there how much would that actually help?

What else would everyone change? And there has to be at least something this builder got right, right?

I am just intrigued as to the tech side of this because both of my cages have been built for me, and I would like to better understand the reason bars go here and gussets go here, etc.

For reference this crash seemed similar but not as bad as jari Matti's Portugal crash and they walked away from that with less injuries and a far more intact car.



Jari matti Portugal crash

Well I have to agree that the cage is not acceptable especially for a 2 seater. One thing that I have taken from these photos is a better understanding of what to look for in a "safe ride" as a co-driver.

The builder and or the person that bolted the Navi seat into the car (to allow a second person to be in the car) should be charged.

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca

Quote
heymagic
That cage is a current NRS design, except for the A pillar supports. Anders believes it is adequate...I don't and refuse to log book such a cage.

But...it does have a diagonal on the passenger side, it terminates in the backstays.

The cage did deform, front twisted to the drivers side, rear to the passengers side. Cage did not break, welds held. Builder did his job. Most importantly the occupants are ok so believe it or not the cage did its job and was adequate.

Cages are not built to never deform. No way can you build a structure in a car with occupants that won't give. Even at relatively slow impacts a decent hit can total a car, such as Sean's Merkur. FIA cages, great seats, good helmets, HNRs...all a clculated risk not a guarantee. Drive wisely.

Yeah yeah whatever. The major stupidity of the idiot braggart is in thinking.
Not recognizing his own extreme limitations and ignoring precedent.
Human errors, and those human errors explain partially by his age, location (cultur of the area) and what passes for but isn't "education".

Anybody who ignores the use of the bodyshell as a relatively strong foundation on which they ADD an additional reinforcing structure--the cage--who ignores that the base structure---the bodyshell has some somee basic "coherence" and strength is a fool. Anybody who destroys the basic shell and as we see from the naked cage, the rest of the "car' kinda disappeared so it must have not been intergrated together with the cage at all---any normal person doing that is just foolish, a twerp bragging that he "knows cages" its outrageous.

Yeah the lives were saved. But that was to a large degree pure dumb luck and not "thankls' to the cage. It was that they just missed the bigger rocks and the way a object skipping down hill has glancing blows as a function of the steepness of the hill. draw a piccie if that ain't clear,
(My body has been the object skipping down hills, duddn't hurt near as much going down as smashing you body into an uphill face..You kinda notice that when its direct blows into your own "bodyshell"(and you done it a few hundred times, you start catagorizing what hurts more vs less. Like asphalt meh bad but. Concrete...BAD, hurts way more and way more abrasive to skin.)

had that thing flipped on level ground and say slid wide an hit a rock face on the outside of the car and had a full sudden stop it would have been 2 guys dead thanks to the arrogance of whatever the genius guy bragging is called.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Quote
zerodegreec
Well I have to agree that the cage is not acceptable especially for a 2 seater. One thing that I have taken from these photos is a better understanding of what to look for in a "safe ride" as a co-driver.

The builder and or the person that bolted the Navi seat into the car (to allow a second person to be in the car) should be charged.

Glad you said it, and not me. But...charged with what? It's not against the law to be a total idjit.

---

John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

We can't control bragging. A rally compliant FIA derived cage may well not have survived any better.

I agree on the body panels flying off and both of us certainly would have built the car differently.

I mentioned earlier it wa shit house luck and I still feel that, but people need to realize cages bend and some hits bend them a lot.

I won't log book those cages for NRS so I'm not a proponent of them and am not defending the design, just want people to realize what can happen with any cage.

Quote
john vanlandingham

Quote
zerodegreec
Well I have to agree that the cage is not acceptable especially for a 2 seater. One thing that I have taken from these photos is a better understanding of what to look for in a "safe ride" as a co-driver.

The builder and or the person that bolted the Navi seat into the car (to allow a second person to be in the car) should be charged.

Glad you said it, and not me. But...charged with what? It's not against the law to be a total idjit.

Well if he is infact an engineer. He can be charged with criminal negligence to start with.

Quote

"An engineer owes a duty to exercise the skill, care and diligence which may reasonably be expected of a person of ordinary competence measured by the professional standard of the time

Engineers are not obliged to perform to the standards of the most competent and qualified members of the profession, unless they covenant to do so

An engineer is to be adjudged by professional standards at the time the work was done, not by what may be known or accepted at a later date, or what may be seen only with the benefit of hindsight"

This to me shows that the design of the cage was for a single occupant. The fact that two seats were fitted to the car shows criminal negligence.

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Intercom and electronics dude. www.zerodegreec.ca



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/15/2012 11:05PM by zerodegreec.

Every time I see the door bars I can't help but think about how they would have failed in a serious side impact. (Straight into the seat where the bends are)
I suspect A-pillar bars would have helped in this one as well.
I don't think I'd get in a car with that cage.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Quote
heymagic
I mentioned earlier it was shit house luck and I still feel that, but people need to realize cages bend and some hits bend them a lot.

I think we all know that cages are expected to bend in a big enough impact. What concerns me is that other than the initial impact, these were not 'hard' impacts but, as John says, glancing blows. If they had gone into the trees it would be a different story.

Quote
heymagic
I won't log book those cages for NRS so I'm not a proponent of them and am not defending the design, just want people to realize what can happen with any cage.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

Quote
john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Some more pics showing the seat.

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Jason McDaniel

Wait, we're the seats opted directly to the floor? Does that harness look wrapped correctly, it seems off to me?