Four Class Structure - CARS Bulletin 2012-05 now online

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heymagic
Make sure the waitress wears a tinfoil bra...

Should be an electrifying time.

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JohnLane

Overkill is consistently more fun

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NoCoast

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BillyElliot
The big difference is that you need to build the car with beefier/heavier rally cage which a lot of road race weenies won't like to have.

Technically some elements of a FIA spec cage can be removable. Main hoop X, Doorbars, Back stays and all optional cage elements.
Would require ALOT more work probably but would also allow unneeded components to be removed for lighter weight when road racing.

I always see that stuff in the safety appendix and shrug. I don't think I would ever build a car with removable elements. Is there destructive tests out there that show the strength of removable sections compared to welded?

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Doivi Clarkinen
You know what I'm gonna do? If Morison comes down here for Olympus I'm going to sit both JV and Keith down and buy you both a beer. No, make that a round of beers. Good stuff, too. I bet you guys would actually get along famously in person.

OK, maybe not.

I sorta doubt it. I have never gotten along with people who repeat slanderous shit again and again and again> This "you're always right' bullshit is slander.
Today i spent a good deal of time helping a new kid in the Xratty world with a dead manual rack and a core PS rack...had him some bushings and junk so he can get it assembled before starting a SEattle University in a couple of weeks.
Now this boy happened to notice that slightly more than half the time was laying the foundation of why this or that and he commented that the stories were How I did this or that wrong initially or thought this or that wrong, then zooming in on the exact error and THEN seeing either a better way or that it was flat stuupid in the first place and not worth the effort.
Not at all the "I know it all" or "I am always right" just because i can see and query flaws and presumptions in other people "logic"

I work alone most of my life so I only have a limited experience in the stupid things others do when might see it, and honestly I do wonder why---a little---people do and repeat some of the stupid things they do....
And I conclude : inertia. "That's the way I always do it..."

But here I get to see they way people write, and writing is an extension of thinking and related to speaking quite closely...
I don't think I would get along even for a beer with a guy who is so whatever that he believes, and does needs to lecture somebody, anybody on what the Golden Rule is supposed to mean---and who cannot see that is offensive.

That would be like me explaining to Frumby how to fly an EA6 after the limited couple of hours I've flown---it would be insulting.

One beer does not efface the shit he has repeated and he now calls "hyperbole".

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

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john vanlandingham
I have never gotten along with people who repeat slanderous shit again and again and again> This "you're always right' bullshit is slander.

Not even remotely close to being slander.
"A reasonable man" would take any general characterization - like 'he thinks he's always right' - as an exaggeration to make a point. (See Hyperbole)

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john vanlandingham
I don't think I would get along even for a beer with a guy who is so whatever that he believes, and does needs to lecture somebody, anybody on what the Golden Rule is supposed to mean---and who cannot see that is offensive.

The ONLY reason I mentioned what I understood the golden rule to mean is that you said you followed its principle when in the past - when defending your insulting, boorish and inflammatory behavior on these forums - you've regularly and repeatedly said you treat others as they treat you. You can't have it both ways.

In the end, if someone we both knew - say, Dave Clark - said we should all sit down for a beer and that we'd probably actually get along, I'd be man enough to do it and come into it with a fresh and open mind. Sadly, I won't be at Olympus.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2012 09:43PM by Morison.

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NoCoast

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BillyElliot
The big difference is that you need to build the car with beefier/heavier rally cage which a lot of road race weenies won't like to have.

Technically some elements of a FIA spec cage can be removable. Main hoop X, Doorbars, Back stays and all optional cage elements.
Would require ALOT more work probably but would also allow unneeded components to be removed for lighter weight when road racing.

What about the allowed tube size difference? How much additional weight does a RA/FIA cage (even with removable elements) have over a SCCA B-spec cage with the minimum tube size?

alan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 10:11AM by tipo158.

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Morison
That the ruleset was written for the Canadian rally community where group 5 is poorly subscribed. I doubt there has ever been an event where there were enough G5 entries to fill a class podium.

Ever?

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

Martin and I are entered for Black River Stages this coming weekend. Because of that we decided to miss this past weekend's Rallye Défi as we didn't want to risk damaging the Nissan 240 with only a week between events. Can't afford to do that. It might have been a smart decision as there were a LOT of retirements at Défi, 15 of 29 entered.

Martin volunteered to crew instead for Warren Haywood / Jennifer Daly. See Martin, in all his sartorial splendour, at 5:00 into this first video as he's refuelling Warren's car.

Does Martin look like somebody who can afford to throw away money on "a one time retune of $1k (or less)". The poor boy can't even afford to buy himself a rain jacket with a working zipper. He had to use duct tape to keep his jacket closed.





Here's a second video, shot on the Saint-Sixte stage EC19. See if you can count how many 2wd cars are still running at this late point in the rally. I suspect the organizers would have welcomed more entries, any entries regardless of engine size...

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Ferdinand

Does Martin look like somebody who can afford to throw away money on "a one time retune of $1k (or less)". The poor boy can't even afford to buy himself a rain jacket with a working zipper. He had to use duct tape to keep his jacket closed.

~$1k is assuming that Martin already has a computer that can actually be tuned easily and reliably!

Not to mention probably dropping $200-300 on having a good quality restrictor designed and manufactured.

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Chris

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Ferdinand

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Morison
That the ruleset was written for the Canadian rally community where group 5 is poorly subscribed. I doubt there has ever been an event where there were enough G5 entries to fill a class podium.

Ever?

That's a bit of an exaggeration.

Wasn't meant as one.
I'm happy to be corrected, but when have you seen a Canadian national event have 3 Gr5 cars finish? Start? I'll even give you regionals...
It has been my impression there hasn't been a full podium of Gr5 cars ever, by all means show me I'm wrong.(no hidden meta message. I really don't mind being shown to be wrong.)

The rules werent written to 'make Martin pay.'
Neither should they be written to save martin money.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 01:31PM by Morison.

This is the one thing that has always confused me about rally in north america. Why do we have different rules and classes between canada and america. If you want more competitors to come to events we should both have the same classes and rules so we can just go to whichever events works best for are lives and not have to worry about different classes and rules. I know it would be difficult but if you want to grow the sport I believe both our countries have to work together to make it easier for all of us to get out and race.

Not that it's likelly I will ever compete in a national, but I don't get why we want to limit what car can be used when the stated goal is to add entries! Seems quite the opposite to me.

Looks a lot like what RSQ did with the 2wd Québec championship and what's happening now a few years later? They went back to as it was before and now have a AWD championship too!

Both situations look like they were trying secretly to attract 2WD manufacturers, but why do so by excluding potential competitors?

I'm pissed for having been put on the side with my almost ready to compete regionaly AWD car 10 years ago and now I won't be able to do any national if I ever build my Volvo... Like I said, that was not very likely, but now it's not possible at all.

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Francois

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Do It Sidewayz

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Ferdinand

Does Martin look like somebody who can afford to throw away money on "a one time retune of $1k (or less)". The poor boy can't even afford to buy himself a rain jacket with a working zipper. He had to use duct tape to keep his jacket closed.

~$1k is assuming that Martin already has a computer that can actually be tuned easily and reliably!

Not to mention probably dropping $200-300 on having a good quality restrictor designed and manufactured.

And a spare..but the second one and machining the compressor housing to fit them shouldn't be too much doing 2, maybe only an extra $500
.
As far as I know, he's on a stock stock stock motor, clutch, gearbox final drive and management. I think he finally put on some small T3 in place of the hybrid T28 OEM turbocharger, cost more than performance.


So $500 for modding the turbos, $2000 for a mangagement system, $?? to install management system and maybe $1000 for rolling road time...

But hey, it's only money, and if some Open 4x4 cars are too fast on some stages, then you gotta do something after 3 years of talking so adding a restrictor---and an extra small one on cars in another class means...um....er... they did something...
Think of the children!

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.

Of course if the follow thru with this madness, there's NOTHING stopping 2wd turbo guys from deciding to call their cars "OPEN" and going 34mm restrictor.
At least then they motors might rev past 5000rpm and maybe even reach 5250 or even 5300 before they're strangled.

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John Vanlandingham
Sleezattle, WA, USA

Vive le Prole-le-ralliat

www.rallyrace.net/jvab
CALL +1 206 431-9696
Remember! Pacific Standard Time
is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2012 11:29AM by john vanlandingham.

There's been a lot of information passed in this thread and I'm a little confused by some of it.

"The main underlying concerns identified by the committee include low entry in many of the current classes, as well as the ever-increasing cost of competition, particularly in Open class. The committee looked into the reasons behind this and determined that the complexity and restrictions, most notably in the production classes, was a significant factor. The basic concept behind the new rules is to remove many of these restrictions and simplify the ability to build affordable cars for competition."

Keith you mentioned that at one point discussions were had about tires in order to lower speeds, then weight was looked at and both were discounted as unsafe.

There is no where in the original CARS release that mentions anything about speed.

I read:

~ Low entry
~ Cost
~ Complexity
~ Ability to build affordable cars

Whats expensive about a 2.3L turbo or for that fact a 5.0L NA that's unrestricted. It's all old technology that's plentiful in the wrecking yards around North America.

Plentiful + Wrecking yard = Affordable

If speed was a consideration then why is that not mentioned in the CARS release?

At the end of the day, isn't Rally about having fun on the stages and not solely driven by the desire to get onto a podium?

In my brief time rallying, there were events where there was only 1 other Gr. 2 car but that didn't matter. I've never had a desire to stand on the hood of a car and spray sparkling wine. But I did have a desire to compete against myself on he stages, set good times, have fun etc.

Mt. Trials is regional I know... but why has it been canceled in the last couple of years?

Too few entrants? This new 4 class structure will = few entries

What is an affordable rally car anyways?

Isn't most of the cost in the prep and not the car itself?

Skye, the guy who started Rally Anarchy has an incomplete XR4Ti that when he finishes it may only be able to run it in the US.

No one that I can think of wins with this rule change!

Group 2 had a displacement limit of 2.4L and Group 5 a displacement limit of 5.1L (normally aspirated).

Since the classes are getting "combined", why only bump the displacement 100cc to 2.5L?

Oh yeah, that includes the 2.5L normally aspirated Subaru Boxer.

The whole thing stinks to me!

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RWD4ME
Mt. Trials is regional I know... but why has it been canceled in the last couple of years?

I think Mt. Trials has been cancelled the last couple of years because of an overstressed organizing group. Rally needs more people to step forward and be part of the central group organizing events. But that is a different issue from the proposed class structure.

alan

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john vanlandingham
Of course if the[y] follow thru with this madness, there's NOTHING stopping 2wd turbo guys from deciding to call their cars "OPEN" and going 34mm restrictor.

So apparently you didn't read the actual rules before commenting on them.

---

First Rally: 2001
Driver (7), Co-Driver (44)
Drivers (16)
Clerk (10), Official (7), Volunteer (4)
Cars Built (1), Engines Built (0) Cages Built (0)
Last Updated, January 4, 2015

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john vanlandingham
Blame is for idiots. losers.