Four Class Structure - CARS Bulletin 2012-05 now online
Posted by Morison
heymagic Banned Godlike Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
Well I see some good (or potential) in the rules and some bad ( or poorly thought out) also. One thing about rules and committees or boards is many times is prejudice and personal agendas trump common sense. I've seen it here at our local dirt track, SCCA and the old PNW rally board. Some people feel the need to change things just to shake stuff up, get even or leave their mark. Who knows why some things that apparently make no sense are decided for. Anyhow, seems like the mission was a bit ill directed in some areas.
Secondly...John, as a half assed friend...your behavior is reprehensible towards Morison and even Alan to a lesser degree. Simply no way for adults to act. Skye...this constant attack mode just detracts from the actual issues, hurts both the site and sport to some degree. We lose Keith, we lose me also. I don't mind the little pokes back and forth and often it is quite fun. John and I have a pretty good relationship off site and talk often on the phone. We are much alike in thoughts and beliefs, with some notable differences. The outright vicious attacks..nah, can't do that. So it stops or the website starts losing members...information...views...ideas...insights and so on. |
HiTempguy Banned Super Moderator Location: Red Deer, Alberta Join Date: 09/13/2011 Posts: 717 Rally Car: 2002 Subaru WRX STi |
Keith is permanently gone from RA. It's not even about having thick skin, he just has better things to deal with then someone yelling at him constantly. Sad loss for the forum, but this is why higher ups in any organization don't typically post on forums. All he was trying to do is be helpful, it wasn't even him making OR voting on the rules. |
heymagic Banned Godlike Moderator Location: La la land Join Date: 01/25/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 3,740 Rally Car: Not a Volvo |
Ya, someone who reads hidden messages into Keith's posts yet fully 1/3 of their post are total undecipherable jibberish. Sad loss, time for some introspection on some peoples behalf. |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
Look you guys, the paternalistic and when asked for detail, dismissive and cagey answers are and were offensive to people. When somebody says---if reference to some new brilliant rule which is just coincidentally going to cause people to spend thousands or jusyt avaod someplace--- "I'm all for openess" but they say "We talked to......some shops" And "some well respected tunerz" And more generally "we talked for 3 years" And the conclusions are a mish mash of contradictions sometimes within the same line of print and then people, MANT people as: "Which shops did you talk to?" (and who at the shop?) "Which well respected tunerz?" And "Who is "we"? " And the answers are "Trust me" and "I really can't say blah blah promotions blah blah sensitive blah" It does not engender respect. And in light of the truly admittedly, obviously ill conceived announced changes which defy reason, defy actual hard evidence going back 20 years, those sort of answers are show the writer's contempt. You boys need to wake up and realise that sure its rude to call somebody a fucking putz, but that is rude directly and honestly. These evasive, cards held to the chest, remarks 'oh I know what's going on but I really can't say....trust me"....... is also rude. But not honestly. I feel no compulsion to build an artifice of respect for somebody who displays consciously or unconsciously such contempt for me and my friends who are simply flabbergasted at these absurd things which keep coming out of Sanctioning organisations. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
tipo158 Alan Perry Professional Moderator Location: Bainbridge Island, WA Join Date: 02/20/2008 Age: Ancient Posts: 430 |
This is the problem with John - anyone who looks at a problem and comes up with a solution different from his is an idiot and unworthy of having a conversation with. Too bad. I think that he has something to contribute to the solution and I still read through his stuff to try and pull out the essence of his criticisms and see if they can be addressed. But I have no desire to engage with him. alan |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
No anybody who keeps repeating that bullshit is an idiot and how much time is a very resonable person to take trying to converse with an idiot? And particularly an idiot who despite asking them lots of questions for clarification, basically says "Trust me". You know it may take a little thinking about things, something dreadful i know, but a person A questioning anothers ideas or proposals, especially when the "idea" evidently conflicts with a stated goal, is not necessarily putting forth an opinion, they are questioning another persons opinion... And further the POINT of questioning anothers often "brilliant ideas" is to help that person avoid problems, some of which maybe are new and difficult to the person "B" expressing an idea, and may be new to them, but they may be a commonplace problem for everybody when they are at the same point. So saying "That ain't too bright" may not help a problem but saying "That ain't too bright bwecuase (for example) it will cost you thousand sof dollar and not work very reliably because of x and y an z" MAY help, if the person listens. But if they just repeat the same thing over and over, things they never experience but only read of, well then fuck 'em. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
tipo158 Alan Perry Professional Moderator Location: Bainbridge Island, WA Join Date: 02/20/2008 Age: Ancient Posts: 430 |
You are right, John. None of the people who worked on the CARS Four Class Structure proposal have the experience in rally that you do. However, I am not sure how complaining about the proposal here is going to change things. Why aren't you joining a CARS club and volunteering to serve on the committee that will evaluate the feedback to the proposal? If you think your experience can help, then you should provide it in a way that it would be effective to get things changed. alan |
imnotcrazy Don Kennedy Ultra Moderator Location: Reading, PA Join Date: 10/05/2006 Age: Fossilized Posts: 227 Rally Car: Impreza |
Okay, but you could SHUT UP once and quit beating your horse. The same stuff over and over and over again gets real old, real fast. Give it up, would you! Don Kennedy |
john vanlandingham John Vanlandingham Godlike Moderator Location: Ford Asylum, Sleezattle, WA Join Date: 12/20/2005 Age: Fossilized Posts: 14,152 Rally Car: Saab 96 V4 |
I agree, such a shame that as people come in and then drift away new people come in and ask the same questions, then have some same ideas from the Intra-web and then some decide they know what the sport needs is a lot of new rules... it does get tiresome. John Vanlandingham Sleezattle, WA, USA Vive le Prole-le-ralliat www.rallyrace.net/jvab CALL +1 206 431-9696 Remember! Pacific Standard Time is 3 hours behind Eastern Standard Time. |
RallyTaco Chris Lanctot Infallible Moderator Location: Livonia, MI Join Date: 03/15/2008 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 107 Rally Car: just a wannabe |
For the love of (insert deity here) can we get this pretty fucking please with a cherry on top? Will donate cash. Not joking. Not even a little bit.
http://www.phorum.org/phorum5/read.php?62,128240 I'm so tired of scrolling past the same bullshit over and over again.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2012 03:37AM by RallyTaco. |
Gene, forgive me old buddy, but we are all are just as guilty to varying degrees, so let's none of us get on our high horses too much. I believe that you made a comment a while back about 'NRS getting their collective heads out of their asses..." or words to that effect, and I felt that was a wholly unjustified insult to many people. My not posting much for quite a while was mostly due to that. So no one has lily-white hands that I can see. The guys I ignore the most are BOTH JVL and Keith; both post in similar ways that waste my time. And note that it takes two people to have a fight and both guys seem equally willing to go at it. (Conversely, the guy I read always is Grant Hughes.) Internet forums have their fights all the time, and especially where everyone is competitive like this collection of auto-racing males. If JVL wants to kill his own forum, let him; it's a free country (or continent?)...and internet. If Keith wants to argue on every point with all sorts of people, let him. IMO, let these guys say what they want, and how they want, and they will earn the respect they deserve from their post's content. The whole CARS class discussion is interesting to me, mostly from hearing all the different viewpoints on how to go about making car classes. (I have no talent at that.) Mark B. |
frumby Jason Hynd Professional Moderator Location: Oak Harbor, WA Join Date: 03/16/2007 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 333 Rally Car: XR4TI a slow build! |
OK, email sent to CARS. Hopefully what I wrote came across as respectful and intelligent. I provided a list of issues I have with the rule changes, and a list of several options. Afterall, a complaint without an accompanying solution is just bitching.
I hope that several other members here are doing the same thing. Tone is important, since the wrong tone will discredit the entire 'letter'. I do get what they are trying to do with the new rules. I also get that it's hard enough to get a comittee to agree on anything, and that anything they do come up with will alienate someone outside that comittee. That being said, I think a better solution would simply have been to make an 'Open 2wd' class, and forget restrictors or displacement limits. I know that a super hot Honda Civic can compete with a turbo XR4TI or a Neon SRT. The difference is that we can get 250ish hp and plenty of torque out of the Ford pretty easily, and realistically that's all we need. We can do that cheap(ish). The Neon might make more, but who cares? There is a serious law of diminishing returns after a certain level of power has been achieved by a 2wd car. You can also get 250hp out of a NA Honda. With an expensive box and final drive that's going to be wicked fast. As it stands now my poor XRATTY will have to compete in Open AWD WITH a 34mm restrictor... or am I reading that wrong. So we get the worst of both worlds. No ability to compete with anyone (realistically), and either running like a complete dog with a 34mm restrictor, or spending money to get it to run like a bit less of a dog. I'm guessing all SRT's, Volvo's, Mazdaspeed3's etc run into the same issue. Like I said earlier, hopefully the craziness doesn't flow south. Simple open rules are better. We need to worry less about 'even' competition and more about allowing the max number of competitors no matter what they are driving. A restrictor or displacement threshold doesn't stop someone from spending 50 grand on a car and having the fastest anyway. Since we all know that's the case, the only logical conclusion is that this has been done to pander to the factories. It should be obvious that they are fickle, and absolutely NOT the cornerstone of the sport. |
aj_johnson A.J. Johnson Senior Moderator Location: Pendleton OR Join Date: 01/07/2011 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 1,381 Rally Car: 88 Audi 80 |
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frumby Jason Hynd Professional Moderator Location: Oak Harbor, WA Join Date: 03/16/2007 Age: Possibly Wise Posts: 333 Rally Car: XR4TI a slow build! |
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NoCoast Grant Hughes Infallible Moderator Location: Whitefish, MT Join Date: 01/11/2006 Age: Midlife Crisis Posts: 6,818 Rally Car: BMW |
I'll probably have a Drenth or Selholm or similar sequential dogbox someday. Is it needed? Definitely not. Is it pretty cool? Yeah. Plus my daughter told me she wanted a Volvo like Nuorala's a little bit ago so I guess I gotta start looking for a 242 to build for her. Luckily she's only 2.5 months so I have a few years to build the thing.
Grant Hughes |
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